Ask the Finn

Lo, a long-time lurker peeks into the thread to add the perspective of a Swedish-speaking Finn. waves at auRa and Torpid Beast from the duck pond

Whether or not a municipality is considered bilingual is determined once every ten years. You’ve got more than 8 % minority speakers or at least 3000 inhabitants registered as speaking the minority language as your mother tongue, you’re considered bilingual and have to put up street signs in two languages. If the level drops below 6 %, you’ll have to change the signs, because you’ve become monolingual. There are fortysomething bilingual municipalities, mostly scattered along the Western coast, and around twenty monolingually Swedish (most of those are on Åland).

Historians use to say that water unites people, and in the days when Finland belonged to Sweden it was certainly easier and more profitable for any merchant or rich farmer along the Western coast to load a ship with pine tar and sell it in Stockholm than trying to get it to Southern Finland or inland. So that’s a big reason why the Swedish-speaking minority has been kept live and kicking. Later, Swedish media spilled over as well, to the rather bizarre effect that teenagers are better informed about the Swedish music scene than the Finnish one (and as an Eva Dahlgren and Imperiet fangirl back in the days, I don’t have much room to talk.)

Entering the discussion from an outside-of Helsinki perspective, I’ll add that there’s a Swedish-speaking middle and working class too (still well-represented in the shipping and boat-building trades), as well as a sizable rural community, and that the dulcet Moomintroll tones most people associate with Swedish-speaking Finns is in fact the accent of the well-bred and de facto bilingual Helsinki elite (which for someone from the boonies barely counts as real Swedish-speakers anyway). I grew up in the small-town, West-coast Swedish fringe and didn’t grok Finnish at all until I was old enough to suss the grammatic system behind the words. Functionally bilingual as a reader and speaker now, though I have to pay attention when writing.

The duck pond phenomenon (I made the Freudian slip of writing suck pond earlier) is like most any duck ponds in the world - if you stir the waters, it’s going to get smelly. It seems to have more than its allotted share of an old-boy network spanning over academia, culture, finance and politics, an over-developed Cult of Nice, and too little space for more than one opinion at a time. (Besides, I like to do my partying without interruptions by drinking songs.)

Since sunspace asked about separatist movements, not so much on the mainland, since the municipalities with Swedish majorities are going to have a decent-size Finnish minority as well, and the monolingual communities are too scattered. Åland is the exception - one of the first things the League of Nations had to solve was a dispute between Finland and Sweden about where Åland was to belong. The question of full independence gets raised every now and then, but doesn’t really get on the serious political agenda. Swedish speakers on the mainland are more concerned with how to guarantee a reasonable level of administrative, medical and judicial services in Swedish. As mentioned, I’m functionally bilingual, but would I still be if I’d been in a serious accident and came to the ER with a head trauma, conscious but severely addled?

Now off to** prideguy’s **thread to uncomfortably straddle the linguistic fence there as well. One last thing, just so no one has to ask - no Swedish speaker in Finland would ever dream about supporting Tre Kronor in ice hockey. No way, not ever. Well, maybe if one is seriously russophobic, Sweden plays Russia in the final game, and Finland got creamed by Russia instead of Sweden.

As a long time lurker I thought I might add some light into this discussion. From an allied perspective, Finland was considered one of the Axis states, even if that is not technically true, because of said participation in the Anti-Comintern Pact(a move made by Risto Ryti, the finnish president, which was openly criticized in parliament and even by members of the cabinet) . In Finland it was(and by some still is) called “co-belligerence with Germany”. Or “aseveljeys”(brother in arms) in Finnish.

It has taken a long time for the finnish people to sort our minds about this and the discussion is still active in finnish academics. The Continuation War is traditionally seen as a direct effect of the Winter War and that argument has some strong points at least when it comes to the motivation for it.

The old “driftwood” theory, which was quite popular at times claimed that Finland just bobbed along into the war alongside the Germans and that the Soviet Union attacked first. Also after the invasion of Norway and Denmark by the Germans, it’s very clear that Finland was isolated between Germany and the Soviet Union, so we apparently had no choice. It’s quite clear though, that Finland’s armed forces were ready for the war and that Operation Barbarossa was not a surprise to the finnish government. What with the alpine jaegers in lapland and all. So that theory has been pretty thoroughly trashed in other ways too.

The government in Finland and also the people were clearly motivated to go to war, so that the areas lost in the Winter War could be gained back. The choice to step over the old border into Eastern Carelia was rather more ambiguous and not as popular in the army or amongst the people. The thought of Greater Finland and the thought of rescuing other finnish tribes from the horrors of communism was a strong ideology at the time though. Whether this all was a mistake or not, a bad unjust war or necessary pragmatism, whether we could have avoided it or not, is hard to say objectively. But Finland did emerge from the war independent and democratic so that’s still something.

As it is now, some still claim that Finland’s war with the Soviet Union was a separate war altogether from the war between Soviet Union and Germany, which is not quite airtight either. Expect people to be a bit defensive or explaining a lot about it if you happen to ask us about it.

Really? Huh, I always root for the Finnish Lions unless you’re playing Tre Kronor. Is this due to some little brother issues, or just that we always end up beating you?

I’m curious about alcohol laws in Finland. Do you have a government monopoly or a more liberal situation? Obviously, this is only an issue in urban Helsinki, as everyone and their uncle burns their own, right?

Do Finns also take the occasional cruise across the Baltic?

Finland has a government alcohol monopoly, that alone has the right to sell hard liquor. Convenience stores, bars, pubs and so on need to get a license to sell alcohol and most do.
Alcohol is heavily taxed to keep the prices high in hopes of discouraging drinking. Since we’d apparently drink ourselves to death otherwise. :dubious:

From my subjective experience, I’d say that Estonia used to be Finland’s equivalent to what Mexico is to US, minus the cheap labor. Now that Estonia’s economy has grown and prices have risen, people tend to go there less for the cheap booze and other thrills and more for actual tourism.

To add my two cents, the alcohol monopol has its good sides too. Since Alko, which is the chain of stores allowed to sell alcohol stronger than mild beer, is a very big buyer of alcohol around the world, it is able to keep a very wide selection of goods with comparatively medium prices. This might be a matter of opinion though.

As a note to the Estonian connection, although prices have gone up there, it’s still cheaper than in Finland. Happily nowadays one sees more travellers who are interested in Estonia as such and not only drunkards. But when I got married this summer, we still calculated that it would be cheapest to get all the alcohol for the reception from Estonia, since there are no legal limits as to the amount of stuff yo bring from there, as long as it’s for personal use or for weddings and such.

korpiklaani are pretty well known in the heavy metal scene. I’ve heard that they revel in their backwoods image. Are they well known locally? and if so, how much lampooning are they engaging in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yM3XJZDV0Yobligatory link

I live in the only area of the US where the predominant ethnic subgroup is Finn. I grew up with surnames like “Saari”, “Niemi”, “Leppinen” and the ever-present “Maki” as ubiquitous as “Smith” or “Jones.” When we first moved back here, Mr. Athena once took a call for me when I wasn’t home. I bust a gut when he gave me the note: a “Mr. Mackey” had called. Heh. How could anyone not know how to spell “Maki”?!?

Anyway, when I was in high school, we had an exchange student from Finland. She’d talk about how all the old Finns would try to talk to her in Finnish and she couldn’t understand a word - the language had changed so much that it was unintelligible to a modern Finnish speaker.

We still have at least one locally produced TV show that’s in Finnish (I think it’s a weekly variety show), and saunas are pretty common in houses (of my 4 siblings, 3 of us have saunas in our homes. I’ve rented crappy student apartments that had saunas. Very, very common, and not just in fancy houses.) We even have a public sauna in town. Sisu is considered a good personality trait to have, and there’s at least two stores in town that specialize in Finnish stuff. We’ve also hosted Finnfest at least twice.

A local did a study a few years back on the origins of the local English dialect, and found it to have a lot of basis in Finn. If I’m remembering right, for example, it’s pretty common for people here to drop certain words at times - “We go Chicago” instead of “we’re going to Chicago.” I seem to recall the article saying that such phrases were the result of Finnish influence on English speakers.

I sure as hell hope they aren’t being serious…
This is the first time I actually hear any of their music, even though I’ve heard the name a couple of times. It looks like they use a lot of iron age and shamanistic imagery, combined with completely tone deaf and unremarkable metal and some folk instruments. That particular video seems to contain a lot of footage taken from a movie released sometimes in 1927.

To discourage anyone from thinking that the above is the state of metal music in Finland, I give you this. Apologies for the slightly tinny sound.

I’m not sure, they might be. The lead singer seems to be of Saami origin, and their website states that they “Are not afraid to be seen as “yokels”, living in the woods.” So are these guys like Finnish hillbillies?

As silly as they are, the music can be quite catchy though.

I took the time to find out more about them, and apparently they used to be a folk music band before they went metal. They used to perform in the Sami language originally too. It looks like they’re not taking themselves too seriously, since most of the songs seem to be about drinking. :smiley:

There aren’t any hillbilly-type people left in Finland. What we do have is a minority that’s pretty much just like the British chavs.

Hehee. I have to admit I’ve wondered how many of the Mackeys in US used to be called Maki or Mäki, but have given up and anglicized their names.

Very cool! Please try to keep it running, since public saunas have practically vanished from Finland. Most residential buildings have at least one sauna now, so the demand for public saunas is gone, but they are an important part of history that needs to be preserved.

(I Am Not A Linguist) but that would make sense, since “We go Chicago” is what you’d get if you directly translate the finnish “Me menemme Chicagoon” and drop all the cases like Illative.

The first time I heard the Monty Python song was in 1999 when a friend of mine gave me the Monty Python Sings CD. I cracked up.

Well, in addition to pony trekking, or camping, or just watching TV, you can go skiing, or skating, or hiking, or sailing, or clubbing, or eating at restaurants (breakfast or dinner…or, you know, just a snack lunch in the hall), or visiting museums, or visiting a summer cottage somewhere, or taking a cruise to Stockholm or Tallinn if you get tired of Finland. Lots and lots of things, really. The Finnish Tourist Board will gladly help you. :slight_smile:

Traditionally, Finland has been a big wood and paper exporter - those counted for over half the exports about 30 years ago. Now, it’s changed: paper is still in the top three, but the others are electronics and metal and engineering. For example, we build lots of very large cruise ships here and then send them off to the Caribbean.

Hmm…interesting! Would you mind asking them some time what the general views of Åland’s situation regarding autonomy are among Ålanders?

I haven’t been there in years (since I have my own sauna now), but from what I can tell it’s doing fine. They remodeled it completely a couple years ago. It’s been in business since 1926.

What’s really too bad is that saunas are wildly misunderstood in the US. Mention sauna to your average person here, and what they think of is an extremely dry, hot wooden room with an electric heater and a little sign in the corner that reads “don’t throw water on the stove.”

A really sauna is hot & steamy. The whole point is to get the löyly going, and that’s been lost in most of the US. No wonder most people don’t enjoy saunas.

And it’s sow-na, not saw-na. But that’s a whole different thread :smiley:

One problem with the Alko monopoly is that small wine importers often have great difficulty getting products onto the shelves because the people working at Alko deciding on the product range have so much say. Then again, Alko does have a very wide ordering catalog from which you can get speciality wines and liquors, and which is very high-quality. And the people working in the stores really know their stuff. So it’s not all bad.

When I was last in Tallinn, I noticed that some bars now have “No Bachelor Parties”-signs outside their doors. I asked one bartender and he said that nowadays, drunken Finns are by far a lesser problem than British and Irish groups who travel to Estonia because of the cheap flights and the cheap booze and act in an extremely obnoxious manner. I love Tallinn and love it more every time I visit; I could maybe even see myself living there at some point.

I’ve also participated in the “viinaralli” for a friend’s wedding; big family on both sides = BIG wedding = BIG savings by going across the pond. :slight_smile:

No maybe about it. They are quite similar. I studied Estonian in college (though I can’t remember that much of it at this point). They say that Estonians have an easier time understanding Finnish than vice-versa, though I couldn’t say why (maybe even just because of Finnish television). I find that I can pick out quite a few words when I’ve had occasion to hear Finnish in movies and such.

My only exposure to Finnish culture has been through Aki Kaurismaki’s films. Now, I remember someone telling me once (and it may have been you, on these boards) that Finns are sparing with their words. Not uncommunicative; just that they say what needs to be said without sugarcoating.

For instance, there’s a scene in Match Factory Girl where the main character and a co-worker are in the breakroom. The co-worker is smoking; the main character is staring straight ahead, and after a long silence, says “I’m pregnant.” Co-worker says “Really?” stubs out the cigarette and leaves. IIRC, this was explained to be as being, not cold as it would be in America, but thoughtful. “Oh, you’re pregnant? Sorry; I won’t smoke around you then.” Is this correct, or am I remembering it wrong/the other person had it wrong?

Sure thing. But until I get hold of them (with them being there and me being here) I’ll go for what I remember :wink:

They really didn’t mind being part of Finland, seeing as they saw themselves to be Ålanders anyway. In addition Åland seems to have much bigger ties to Österbotten (right), with Vasa and the Swedish-speaking Finns there. Also, the dialect is funny :wink: Anyone who says otherwise, lives in a region where there are plenty of Finns :slight_smile:

I guess they realised that it wasn’t really realistic to be altogether independent, so they’re pretty satisfied with autonomy.

And man did they support the Finnish Lions in hockey - we never heard the end of it when they beat Sweden (I was living in Sweden, when I got to know them).

I think Kaurismäki’s dialogue is extremely representative of Kaurismäki and Kaurismäki only. TV shows and plays parodize him by having people stand next to each other and speak extremely formal language (Kaurismäki’s dialogue is very often “kirjakieli”, the more formal written language, which is different from the spoken language “puhekieli”) in a strict monotone while staring off into space. The aridity and bleakness of the dialogue is an exaggeration and is not representative of the way Finns speak.

On the other hand, Finns in business previously often needed to be taught small talk. It’s a cultural thing to say things straight-out and not dally around with formalities, which sometimes makes Finns seem brusque to their foreign business partners, who are more used to a drawn-out introductory phase which dances around the issues, laying groundwork before actually getting to the point.

One thing which is often cited here in Finland, and which I’ve noticed myself, is that if an American says “How are you?” or “We should meet up sometime”, they may not really mean it; a Finn, on the other hand, when hearing “We should meet up sometime”, will dig out their calendar and start checking dates. This, too, is changing these days: the usual answer to “Miten menee?” (“How’s it going?”) is “Mitäs tässä, entä itelles?” (“Meh shrug How about you?”) among my reference group, and after that exchange, we’ll start talking about what we were really going to talk about. Still, I find that Finns are still more straight-forward with their communication regarding business or other matters. Personal matters, on the other hand, seem to be a bit tough for some people, especially men. (Then again, isn’t that the case pretty much everywhere?)

I see. Thank you. And on further reflection, I remember who told me that, and it was not you.