Ask the high-performance driving instructor

Well, since you’re still going with this (and I must say I cannot believe that you haven’t been inundated with questions by now), here’s mine.

What is your take on this scenario that I was told by a racing friend? He said that when taking curves, if you have a curve or series of curves exiting to a long straightaway, the most important thing on earth is do what ever you have to to exit that last curve with the highest possible speed.

His rationale was that if you even exit with a 1 mph advantage, you will keep that all the way, leaving everyone else at 1 mph. (This is of course assuming all cars have equal acceleration, which he and you and I know does not normally happen, but the principal still applies—you will KEEP your 1 mph advantage all down the straight.)

It makes sense to me, but I am not a professional race car driver, nor even at this point an involved amateur. What say you?

Thanks commasense I’m definitely keeping my car stock for as long as possible. I’m pretty sure my budget is going entirely into finding ways to get more track time. That course is offered only once a year so I’m looking for other clubs and courses. My track instructor mentioned the Miata Club does a short track thing around the south end. One car at a time, timed laps. I think that would be a great way to work on my cornering skills. As already observed it’s the corners that count. If/when I get a faster car I’m pretty sure punching the gas pedal isn’t going to take a whole lot of practice.

Race City is a counter clockwise track. That front straight doubles as a drag strip so the sides are really greasy. We all pounded right down the center as instructed except when passing. Only when indicated to pass of course. It sure is weird using your signal light to let somebody know which side you want to be passed on. There were a couple incidents when someone went to pass and by force of habit used the signal lights. Of course the guy behind that guy now thinks he has the signal to pass and also pulls out. I was guilty of it but only a couple quick flashes of the light and I shut it off. Whoops!

Gut: At all of the events I’ve done, you signal to let someone pass you with your hand, not the turn signals. That’s very strange. You wacky Canadians!

All experts agree that the turn leading onto the longest straight is the most important turn of the track, for just the reasons your friend gave. The point is not that you will definitely beat another car, but that that the faster you exit that corner, the faster you will be going at the end of the long straight. It is therefore your best opportunity for lowering your lap time.

Conversely, sometimes you take a corner more slowly than the theoretical “best” line. Take a look at the drawing on this page. (There’s a lot of great, if highly technical, info there, but for now we’re just looking at the picture.) It depicts the theoretical “best” line through a corner: you start out on the edge of the track opposite the corner, turn in and touch the apex, then track out to the far edge of the track on the other side of the turn.

Now take a look at Turn 5 on this map of Summit Point Raceway. If you imagine it as a more acute (and mirror image) version of the first drawing, you might think that the best line would be to be on the right edge of the track before turning in. And it would probably get you through that turn faster.

But look at Turn 4 (which is the bend below the words “The Chute”). It is the fastest turn on the track. In fact, most racers treat it as a straight and accelerate all the way through it. For optimum speed through 4, you start on the left, touch the apex on the right, and track all the way out to the left. Setting up for 5 by moving to the right before making the left turn would require you to go much, much slower through 4.

No matter what you do, 5 will always be the slowest corner on the track. So you throw it away, and enter that left turn from the left edge of the track, because the speed you can carry through 4 that way far outweighs the penalty of taking that slow corner in a less-than-optimal fashion.

Take a look at this video. (It starts out on the front straight, heading for turn 1, if you want to follow along on the map.) He turns in for Turn 4 at about 39 seconds in, touches the apex at about 42 seconds, and gets to the apex of 5 at 48 seconds, turning into 5 from the left edge of the track.

(Note that just ahead there’s an idiot who doesn’t know the track or his car, and keeps locking up his brakes. Also note that the idiot tries to take 5 from the middle of the track.)

All this just to point out that, on the track, as in life, everything is interconnected, and sometimes you have to make compromises. (Hmmm…driving as philosophy…maybe I should write a book!)

I’ve been busy doing track days as often as possible at Pacific Raceways, just south of Seattle. Two things stand out. One was a guy getting his novice racing license in a Honda Element of all things. Very slow, I passed him a number of times. Still, he had a great time and qualified for the novice races.

Second was a guy in a mid-sized Dodge pickup. He got unbelievable amounts of body roll and his tires made the strangest sounds. Don’t think I would have wanted to instruct in that vehicle, but the day went well for him. Not that he ever went off the track, but he was well prepared for it. Mud tires and all.

Someone asked about similar programs for motorcyclists. They exist, but they’re administered by different clubs of course. It’s probably best to google the local road-racing organizing body and ask them what’s available locally. Actual training programs are rarer as there are fewer motorcyclists and then there’s the issue of how best to instruct given that you can’t have the instructor sitting by your side. Back when I rode, there were a few traveling programs that came through the area once or twice a year. Once you’ve done one of the formal programs, you can then ride at any of the more common club events that otherwise don’t offer instruction.
This year has been pretty grim as far as track days go. I’m in the middle of a basement remodel and foundation repair project and I feel like I shouldn’t spend any money until I see close to final figures for the work. If I come in under-budget, my present to myself will be 6 point harnesses and a HANS device. And new tires.

Thanks for the answer and lots of great info on my question, commasense.

The turn signal thing is common in Europe. You see it a lot in Nurburgring videos.

It makes sense, I guess, except for the fact that it requires you to reverse your thinking about the purpose of the turn signal 180 degrees from street driving.

But on the plus side it’s easier, clearer, and safer than sticking your hand out the window. I’m surpried I haven’t heard of it before now. I guess it’s pretty rare in the US.

I don’t want to monopolize this thread, but here is another, more general, question. Then I’ll shut up.

You doubtless know of the driving schools that put you in a NASCAR clone and let you do laps after training and all. The thing with me is that if I went to one of these, and if I had the skill, I’d want to work up to near-racing speed…say 180 mph or so.

Yet from what I’ve read about them, they hold you to way under that, not terribly faster than a hot street car could reach, say 140-150 mph. (if only for a limited time)

So my primary question is do you know of any driving schools that DO allow you to get up to nearly racing speed?

Or are the safety/skill/wear-and-tear issues just too big? Thanks again!

Clarification: I meant that the hot street cars could reach these speeds but most are not built to do this for extended periods of time. My bad phrasing.

Don’t worry about monopolizing the thread. If you have more questions, ask away.

I don’t know an awful lot about the NASCAR-type schools, but I did the Mario Andretti Racing School at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. I was really looking forward to running at high speed in an “Indy-style car.” In the end, though, I was disappointed because it wasn’t a school in the sense that Skip Barber is a school. It was more of an extended theme park ride.

They didn’t really teach any principles of driving or racing, they just taught you how to follow the instructor’s car, and took you through a number of laps at increasing speeds. It was fun to go at a fairly good clip around the track but in the end it was kind of empty, since it was all behind the instructor’s car.

I had a friend with a connection with the school, so I didn’t have to pay the $750 that my 14 laps would have cost, although I did pay for the trip to Vegas, which didn’t amount to much less than that.

Some of the NASCAR-style schools I’ve seen seem to be fairly similar: a few laps for a fairly high price. Some have multi-day programs that look similar to a Skip B., but unless you seriously plan to get into stock car racing, why learn oval track technique? AFAIK, there is nothing like HPDE for ovals. So you might as well take a road-course school for the same money.

If what you really want is to go 180 mph, I have one word for you: Nürburgring!

(FYI: 180 mph = 288 kph)

“More of an extended theme park ride.”

You have a better gift for words than I, sir. This is exactly where my thoughts were going on this topic.

I just wasn’t sure if I was missing something.

Your type of schooling is where I’d go if/when the wife and/or daughter ever decide to treat me to this experience. I’d much rather be going flat out, at the limit of the track, even if that is only 50-60 mph through the curves, switchbacks, chicanes, turning right, turning left, shifting gears, matching rpms to the speed, etc. Hell, I’d be happy doing autocross at even lower speeds, just as long as I was pushing the milits and learning.

Thank you so much. Nice to know I’m not on the wrong track (no pun intended) here.

I envy you your skill and your job, BTW. :mad: (just kidding)

As I think I mentioned above, instructing is not a paid job. After four or five years of running HPDE, I took a couple of instructor’s clinics and now I volunteer to the track and event organizers in exchange for free track time. The main reason I became an instructor is that I thought teaching would help me to learn more about driving. And it has. Many times I’ve found myself telling a student, “Do this,” and realizing I don’t always do that myself!

So keep up with the track work, and you, too, could become an instructor.

On Friday I’ll be instructing a Ferrari group. :eek:

Instructing is interesting. So far, I’ve never had a really bad student (knock wood!), but in most of the courses I teach, I select the student myself. Or rather, I select the car I want to instruct in. Hopping into a Miata with a 50-year-old is obviously a little “safer” than getting into a Viper driven by an wired 18-year-old.

But a whole field of Ferraris will be very interesting.

Most of the time, I offer to drive the student’s car for the first few laps to show him the line. I have a feeling that the Ferrari drivers may not be so willing to let someone else drive their car.

I imagine that many people would assume that one of the coolest things about being an instructor is that you get to drive all those different student cars. For me, at least, it hasn’t been that big a deal, because 1) you only get a couple of laps in it, 2) you aren’t going anywhere near top speed, 3) Hi, Opal, 4) you’re being careful not to grind the gears or do anything embarrassing or harmful to the student’s car, and 4) you’re narrating your usual track spiel, so you’re not really focusing on the details of the car’s performance. (It may also be that, now that I’m 50 years old, my brain doesn’t store and recall all those details as well as it might have done 20 years ago.)

I didn’t see this answered in the thread, but I didn’t read very close.

Where do you teach?

I have a good friend who is an instructor at a very similar sounding program. He teaches at Mid-Ohio and someplace south of Indianapolis (Putnam Park?) I remember when he went to his first school. He stuck with it an has been an instructor for several years now.

As I mentioned in the OP (which is long, so I’m not surprised you missed it), mostly I instruct at Friday at the Track, Summit Point’s one-day school. I’ve also taken the instructor clinic offered by NASA, and taught for them at Lime Rock and Virginia International Raceway.

How do you feel about ABS and traction control as they apply to beginners learning things like threshold braking and throttle control? Would you prefer they were or were not there?

ABS especially seems like it could get in the way. When I took an HPDE class, I’m not sure I got a real innate feel for where my braking threshold was because I could just stomp as hard as I wanted and trust the ABS. Later, when I took a Kart racing class, I learned just how touchy that threshold can be and spent a lot of time spinning round until I figured it out. :slight_smile:

In cars that have ABS and traction control, it is usually possible to turn the TC off, but not the ABS. So that limits your choices, but I’d prefer it that way than the other way 'round.

Traction control: For rank newbies, I recommend they leave it on for the first few sessions, but turn it off after they have some track time under their belts. The only exception is if it is raining, when I’ll leave it on for drivers up to the intermediate level, unless they are especially cautious or skilled.

The problem with traction control is that a new student won’t realize when the system is correcting his mistakes, and will therefore keep making them. In the beginning, when he’s a bit overwhelmed by everything he has to take in, that’s okay. But after he has the line down relatively well and is starting to pick up speed, he needs to know how his inputs affect the car’s handling and what kinds of moves can cause a spin or drift. Then he can avoid them or use them to his benefit. TC masks his mistakes, and even worse, because he probably won’t realize what the system is doing for him, he will have an unrealistic perception of the car’s capabilities and his own skill level. If he tries the same moves in a car without TC, he can get in trouble.

(An advanced driver can tell when the TC is doing the driving instead of him. Once in a while I’ll get halfway through Turn One and realize the car isn’t hanging its rear out the way I told it to. Then it occurs to me: I didn’t turn off the TC before leaving the pits!)

I’ve had students who were scared to turn the TC off, because they were concerned that they might overdrive the car and get into trouble without it. I tried to persuade them that as long as they built up their speed slowly and steadily, they would find the edge of performance without catastrophic results. But at least one student wouldn’t buy that, and kept the TC on all the time. He was one of my most frustrating students.

Another downside of TC is that on some cars (including the 350Z I drive), driving on track with TC on will wear out the rear brake pads faster than the fronts. Ordinarily, the front brakes do most of the stopping, so they are made bigger and the front pads normally wear out first. TC generally works by applying braking to different wheels preferentially to stop a spin or slide; it’s usually the rear brakes that can accomplish that. But since rear brakes are smaller, they can overheat more easily and the pads will wear faster.

ABS: Your experience points out the benefits and pitfalls of ABS in track driving. It sure makes teaching easier. You can just say, “BRAKE HARD!” and not worry about the student locking up or flat-spotting the tires. And if he plans to remain in a street car with ABS, that’s okay.

Except that he doesn’t learn the important skill of threshold braking. So if he gets into a car without ABS, he’ll have to learn. Not impossible, although, as you found, it takes some time. But if he’s already mastered the other elements of track driving–the line, shifting, etc.–picking up threshold braking won’t be too hard.

So ABS delays the learning of a skill that, much like manual shifting (in street driving), is useful, but not always necessary, and that is easier for an experienced driver to learn than a newbie who may well be overwhelmed with everything else he’s trying to absorb.

Finally, it is possible to learn threshold braking in an ABS car. It’s usually not hard to tell when the ABS kicks in: there’s a throbbing in the pedal as it pulsates on and off. So you have the student try to brake as hard as he can without activating the ABS, much he would in a non-ABS car. This won’t result in the shortest stopping distance, since the ABS can outperform any human driver, but it will teach the skill in a way that can be applied (if somewhat imperfectly) to non-ABS cars.

Well Americans don’t use there turn signal on the street driving either :wink:
Have you got any general tips for regular driving, common errors you see in beginners that you might point out to the general SDMB populace?

Also any web pages on driving skills that you might recomend?

As an asside, do you or any other instructors play computer racing games?

At the end of that episode, she came out with the comment “I could do that time in a van”. They took her up on the challenge in the next series, to celebrate 40(?) years of the Transit van.

This may seem like a silly question, but I’m serious. I’ve always wondered how the people who drive for the car commercials – the “professional driver, closed course, do not attempt” people – get those jobs. Because I’d really like that job. Would a course like this help me find the start of that career path?

She missed it by a few seconds If I remember correctly, But watching the video you still see her passing porsches and the like.