Ask the high-performance driving instructor

[Sofaspud]

Ok, I have a question.

One thing I keep hearing about over and over is ‘double-clutching’. Supposedly it’s better than regular clutching (?) because it reduces wear on the engine, maximizes the power curve, accelerates your acceleration, and for all I know cures impotence, cancer, and world hunger if done properly.

Problem is, everything I’ve looked up about it seems to indicate that it is something that only applies to big rigs and true NASCAR (and other, I suppose) style racing vehicles. According to sources I’ve seen, double-clutching has not been necessary for ordinary street vehicles for many many moons.

I essentially taught myself how to drive a stick shift (my mom taught me how to drive, on a police driving course no less - fun! - but that was an auto). I’d never until recently heard of this double-clutching thing. Have I missed out on something important here?

And if so, what?

–sofaspud

[Harmonix]

It definitely reduces syncro wear/clutch wear. I doubt it does any of the other crap stuff though.

Try double clutching your downshifts a few times. When you do it perfectly the shifter just falls in. It’s like butter.

IMHo it’s pretty pointless to double clutch upshifts.

Do you do single clutch rev matching at least?

[Harmonix]

actually now that I think about it. Single clutching your upshifts can reduce syncro wear as well.

I double clutch my 4rth - 5th gear upshifts above 70 because it grinds otherwise.

[Sofaspud]

@Harmonix

Try double clutching your downshifts a few times. When you do it perfectly the shifter just falls in. It’s like butter.

IMHo it’s pretty pointless to double clutch upshifts.

Uh… not to put to fine a point on it, but, the reason I asked what double-clutching was is because I, um… don’t know how to do it or what, precisely, it is.

Though ‘falling in like butter’ does sound appealing, in a ‘gee, I really shouldn’t be thinking about my car like this’ kind of way.

@Harmonix

Do you do single clutch rev matching at least?

Again I am without Clue™. I taught myself how to drive a stick shift. It involved quite a bit of shift-LURCH-sputter’ing in the (fortunately long) driveway. I like to think I’ve figured quite a bit out, but I’m pretty much clueless when someone says something like ‘single clutch rev matching’.

I mean, I can figure out you want me to frobozz the whatchamacalit, I guess, but is that before or after I depress the thingamajigger?

–sofaspud

[Misnomer]

I’m surprised that I missed this thread when it debuted!

@commasense

Summit Point Motorsports Park in West Virginia, whose long-running one-day school, Friday at the Track, is how I got my start, and where I now instruct.

At least two of my co-workers are/have been FATT regulars: one is a big bald guy nicknamed “Bubba,” and the other is a tall, skinny, somewhat pedantic (but really nice) guy named Geoff. He has an Elise, but I’m not sure if he drives it there. I don’t know what Bubba drives there, or even if he still goes; I’m pretty sure Geoff still goes somewhat regularly. I’ll ask him about it at work tomorrow – just 'cause I’m curious, not 'cause I think you care. <grin>

Anyway, I’ve been dying to give FATT a try ever since Bubba first mentioned it to me, probably 4 years ago. I’m hoping to get there this fall. I drive a mundane '02 Nissan Sentra, but it needs new tires and probably brakes before I’d take it on a track, even just for a day. I’ll have some extra funds around October, and am hoping to use some of the money to both get the car in good shape and pay for the track/lesson. Hey, if I ever make it out there could I request you as my instructor? That would rock!

I also have a question about taking daily drivers out there: earlier in the thread you mentioned that track driving will be a little harder on the car than the daily commute, and that makes sense. But how much harder should I expect it to be? Could taking my little Nissan out there actually “hurt” it in any way (just the driving; I’m not anticipating an accident or anything)? Am I likely to notice any new rattles the day after FATT?

@Harmonix

Try double clutching your downshifts a few times.

I’m with Sofaspud: what the heck did you just say??

I’ve been driving stick for 20 years (since day 1), but I’m another one who always thought that it only applied to big trucks. I think I’ve seen double-clutching described on this board before, but I didn’t really “get it” then…

[Robot_Arm]

@commasense

If what you really want is to go 180 mph, I have one word for you: Nürburgring!

(FYI: 180 mph = 288 kph)

Not a chance. Have you seen a map of the Nürburgring? It’s almost all corners; lots of second- and third-gear stuff, and some places where you need to plan the line through three of four turns to get it right. There’s one good straightaway, but that’s where you enter and exit the track on open days, so you never really get up to very high speeds.

I did it a couple years ago in a rented diesel Mercedes. Passed a Porsche, too.

[Harmonix]

Link to a shifting faq

This guy, and his linked articles explain it far better then I ever could.

You will understand the first time you get it right. It feels so nice and smooth. As a bonus you put less wear on your syncros and your clutch.

[Harmonix]

I think this link in particular explains it well.

[commasense]

Wow, I look away for a few days, and the thread comes back to life. Sorry not to get back to you all sooner.

@Bippy the Beardless

Have you got any general tips for regular driving, common errors you see in beginners that you might point out to the general SDMB populace?

Where would I start? This is mostly outside the scope of this thread, but I’ll mention a couple of things that sometimes come up in HPDE schools.

Using the engine to slow down. In a word, don’t. Many young drivers have learned that they can downshift instead of braking and many people claim that this is better than using the brakes. Bullshit. 1) it’s nowhere near as effective in slowing the car, and B) it wears out the clutch, which is much more expensive to replace than brake pads. But lots of guys think it’s really cool. The only times you should use the engine to slow the car is if you’re heading down a long hill or mountain, where staying on the brakes for a long time could overheat them or if your brakes have failed.

We’ve dealt with the subject recently here, here, here, and here.

If I had one piece of advice to give a street driver from things I’ve learned on the track, it is that the car will go where you are looking. In an emergency situation, where you’ve gone off the road, for instance, don’t look at that tree you’re afraid of hitting. Look at the space between the trees that you want to put the car through. Although it sounds like new-age bunk, your hand-eye coordination works at a subconscious level to put your car where you look. It’s damned hard to avoid looking at something that seems to pose a threat, but if you look past it, you have a much better chance of missing it. Look at it and you will hit it.

Also any web pages on driving skills that you might recomend?

This NASA page (National Auto Sports Association, not the rocket scientists) has a basic explanation of HPDE, and links at the bottom of the page to articles on various aspects of track driving.

As an aside, do you or any other instructors play computer racing games?

A decade or so ago, I did try a couple of the Indy Car simulators, but I’m not much into computer games any more. Even then, though, they were very realistic and detailed in their portrayal of the track geography and the handling characteristics of the cars. I understand that some pro racers use them to familiarize themselves with tracks they haven’t been to before, and for general practice. The real problem with them, in my experience, is that driving is essentially a physical activity, and the one component that video/computer games can’t duplicate–the physical effects of G forces as you move around the track–is the most important one in the experience. Trying to figure out what the game designers are telling you about the car’s handling through visual and audio cues alone, when you’re used to getting that info through your butt, was just too much of a shift for me.

[commasense]

@Twinkie

This may seem like a silly question, but I’m serious. I’ve always wondered how the people who drive for the car commercials – the “professional driver, closed course, do not attempt” people – get those jobs. Because I’d really like that job. Would a course like this help me find the start of that career path?

I don’t believe that anyone I know works as a pro driver for film/TV, so my answer will be a slightly educated WAG. The first thing is to get as much experience as possible. So, yes, HPDE classes would probably be a good (and reasonably inexpensive) way to start. After you’ve got the basics down, try to drive as many different kinds of cars as possible. Spend as much time as possible on the skid pad to really hone your car control skills. Taking a pro school like Skip Barber, Jim Russell, or Bob Bondurant will look good on the resume.

A couple years of racing in an amateur series (e.g. Spec Miata) would probably give you plenty of good experience, too.

But as for getting actual work on TV or film, it’s often a matter of who you know and what you can show them that counts. If you have a friend who’s making a video for a local band and can somehow work a cool car stunt into it (safely and legally, of course!) having something that you can actually show someone could help you move up to the next rung on the ladder. Finding a real pro driver who is actually doing it, and asking for advice or instruction, or volunteering to help in any way, is probably also a reasonable entry path. But I suspect that this, like so much in Hollywood, is an area in which competition is fierce. Good luck!

@Sofaspud

One thing I keep hearing about over and over is ‘double-clutching’. Supposedly it’s better than regular clutching (?) because it reduces wear on the engine, maximizes the power curve, accelerates your acceleration, and for all I know cures impotence, cancer, and world hunger if done properly.

Googling on “double clutching” will bring up any number of sites that describe the technique, so I’ll pass on writing up my own explanation. (Harmonix’s links aren’t working for me right now, but that’s probably just temporary.)

The short answer is: don’t worry about it. I never do it on the track or off, although I do use the heel-toe technique on track, as I have mentioned above.

Double-clutching may be necessary if you drive a real race car, for instance in a Skip Barber school, which is where I learned it and was the only time I’ve had to do it. And you can do it in a street car, but for the most part, it just wastes time and energy in a car with synchros.

[commasense]

Misnomer: Can’t say as I’ve met Bubba or Geoff, but I might know them to see them. At the track you usually recognize people by their cars, and rarely remember more than their first name, if that.

Your Sentra will do just fine, and as long as the tires aren’t corded and the brakes aren’t scraping metal to metal, you should be okay. It’s always better to be in tip-top shape, but as long as stuff isn’t falling off the car, you probably won’t do any serious damage the first time or two out on track. Once you go beyond the beginner stage, though, and start picking up some real speed, you’ll want to make sure that everything is in good condition.

I’d be happy to teach you at Summit Point. In fact, I’ll be there for a Seat Time event (just driving, no instruction) this Friday, June 23. If you can come out for any part of the day, I can show you around and give you a ride in my car. You won’t be able to drive yourself, but you’ll be able to see all the other interesting cars, watch them on track, and generally have a good time. I’ll probably also be at the August 4 Seat Time. Just look for the copper-colored 350Z. (I won’t have the numbers on for the Summit Point events.) Another recent picture.

Although I won’t be at either of the July FATTs, you might consider just showing up. The classes fill up long in advance, but if you’re early enough (NLT 8 am) there’s a chance that you may be able to sign up on the spot. This is especially true if the weather is threatening rain. If you can’t get in, you can still sit in on the two classroom sessions, hang out, and see if an instructor or Group 2 (advanced) driver will give you a ride. Just ask. Most are happy to do it. And don’t worry about not knowing anyone there. A surefire way to make a friend at the track: ask him about his car, and listen admiringly to whatever he says.

I’ll probably be instructing at the FATTs in September, October, and November. The September and October classes are already full, so if you want to get into one of the November sessions, sign up now. If something comes up and you can’t make it, they let you reschedule once without penalty.

I hope I’ll see you (or any other DC area Dopers) at the track. And while I’m at it, for anyone within striking distance of the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, near Mansfield, I’ll be there July 7-9. Stop by if you can.

[Bippy_the_Beardless]

@commasense

Using the engine to slow down. In a word, don’t. Many young drivers have learned that they can downshift instead of braking and many people claim that this is better than using the brakes. Bullshit. 1) it’s nowhere near as effective in slowing the car, and B) it wears out the clutch, which is much more expensive to replace than brake pads. But lots of guys think it’s really cool. The only times you should use the engine to slow the car is if you’re heading down a long hill or mountain, where staying on the brakes for a long time could overheat them or if your brakes have failed.

Thanks for that, I’d missed the other discussions (or forgot) I was taught to use both engine and breaks for slowing (engine if you weren’t going to come to a stop) glad to hear that was rubbish for modern cars with modern brakes.

@commasense

If I had one piece of advice to give a street driver from things I’ve learned on the track, it is that the car will go where you are looking. In an emergency situation, where you’ve gone off the road, for instance, don’t look at that tree you’re afraid of hitting. Look at the space between the trees that you want to put the car through. Although it sounds like new-age bunk, your hand-eye coordination works at a subconscious level to put your car where you look. It’s damned hard to avoid looking at something that seems to pose a threat, but if you look past it, you have a much better chance of missing it. Look at it and you will hit it.

I was given a skid-pad course as a Birthday present severel aeons ago. It was amazing how true what you just said was. We were simply avoiding cones and were told to try and avoid hitting the cone we were driving towards whilst looking at the cone, then whilst looking at the space between the cones. When looking at the cone it was like we were somehow hypnotised into hitting it.

[commasense]

@Bippy the Beardless

I was given a skid-pad course as a Birthday present severel aeons ago. It was amazing how true what you just said was. We were simply avoiding cones and were told to try and avoid hitting the cone we were driving towards whilst looking at the cone, then whilst looking at the space between the cones. When looking at the cone it was like we were somehow hypnotised into hitting it.

I was also convinced on a skid pad. Driving in a circle while looking out the right side of the windshield (the direction in which we were turning), I said to myself, “I’m not going to move a muscle, I’m just going to turn my head and look straight while continuing the right turn.” I did, and damned if the car didn’t just go where I was looking, even though I hadn’t consciously moved the wheel. It’s almost spooky.

[Necros]

@commasense

I don’t believe that anyone I know works as a pro driver for film/TV, so my answer will be a slightly educated WAG. The first thing is to get as much experience as possible.

I do know someone (well, several someones) who does this, and commasense is correct: Get as much seat time as possible, know people and be involved with motorsport, and be an awesome driver.

Anyway, you can read about Bob Tunnell’s experience here: Staff Bios
Keep in mind that he doesn’t do it for a living.

Tanner Faust, as I’ve mentioned in a Cafe Society thread, is a local guy who did a lot of the driving for the new Fast and Furious movie. He works at the Bridgestone Winter Driving School in Steamboat Springs. Here’s a bit of info about him: http://www.speedtv.com/articles/automotive/lifestyle/23889/

In other words, if you really are truly decicated to trying to make a go of this type of thing, get your ass in a racecar now, and don’t get out.

[Harmonix]

[quote]

The short answer is: don’t worry about it. I never do it on the track or off, although I do use the heel-toe technique on track, as I have mentioned above.

[quote]

Do you single clutch rev match your down shifts?

[Bippy_the_Beardless]

Bit general this one, but sice it seems to be going towards “Ask the car driving expert”.
I have a car with a turbo, is it worth investing in a turbo boost gauge?

[commasense]

@Harmonix

The short answer is: don’t worry about it. I never do it on the track or off, although I do use the heel-toe technique on track, as I have mentioned above.

Do you single clutch rev match your down shifts?

Yes, using the heel-toe technique described in post #17.

[Harmonix]

@commasense

Yes, using the heel-toe technique described in post #17.

you heel toe on the street?!

as an aside, I simply can’t do heel toe in my car. I always end up hitting the kick panel. Are there such a thing as after market adjustable pedal sets?

How about driving shoes? what kind of shoes do you use? Do you know of any common pairs?

[Misnomer]

@commasense

Misnomer: Can’t say as I’ve met Bubba or Geoff, but I might know them to see them. At the track you usually recognize people by their cars, and rarely remember more than their first name, if that.

Apparently Bubba doesn’t do FATT much anymore, but Geoff just told me that he’s an instructor there now, too. He usually drives a Porsche at the track, but sometimes the Elise. I showed him your pic, but didn’t get more than “I think that guy looks vaguely familiar…” Would have been funny if you guys were track buddies or something. <grin>

I’ll be there for a Seat Time event (just driving, no instruction) this Friday, June 23. If you can come out for any part of the day, I can show you around and give you a ride in my car. You won’t be able to drive yourself, but you’ll be able to see all the other interesting cars, watch them on track, and generally have a good time.

That’s seriously tempting, but they’re talking about big thunderstorms on Friday … I’ll keep the August 4th Seat Time in mind, though!

The trouble with “just showing up” is taking the day off work. Hard to justify if I won’t be guaranteed any driving.

I’ll probably be instructing at the FATTs in September, October, and November. The September and October classes are already full, so if you want to get into one of the November sessions, sign up now.

Wow, thanks for the tip! I’ll look at the schedule ASAP. I might see about the October wait list, too.

[Necros]

@Bippy the Beardless

I have a car with a turbo, is it worth investing in a turbo boost gauge?

What car do you have?
Short answer, yes with a maybe, long answer no with a but.
Do you ever plan on modifying your car? If so, it’s absolutely necessary. If not, then it can give you a little peace of mind to be able to monitor your boost pressure, but the danger of overboosting a factory-tuned car is slim-to-none. Plus, it’s kinda cool to watch.