Wouldn’t it be expensive to move to Israel, find a place to live, find a new job, etc? Wouldn’t that be a big obstacle?
Why does god care where you live? What commandments can only be kept in Israel? Isn’t Israel a little small to accomodate all the Jews? What exactly do you mean, “renewal of the Jewish people?”
Also, what is kibbutz?
Thanks for answering my questions.
I honestly don’t know - I assume some have Jordanian citizenship.
I don’t think the Palestinians need a state - the Arabs have 22 countries, and a solution could be arrived at without a new state being formed. A state is one possible outcomed of a negotiated agreement.
I think you misunderstood my point. I am not saying that people with other religions and cultures can’t live here.
Here’s an example to try to clarify. Let’s say the US and UN decided to create a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq. They’ve been stateless for centuries, persecuted by their neighbors, etc. Now no one is discussing expelling all non-Kurds, particulary Arabs from that state. But in order for it to maintain it’s Kurdish and democratic nature, two requirements must be made of all the Arabs that choose to stay in Kurdistan: a) that they don’t try to take over the country and turn it into another Arab state (remember, the purpose of the founding of Kurdistan was for the Kurds to have their own country), and b) not to ally themselves with Iraq, particulary if Iraq has aggresive intentions against Kurdistan. Those are very logical requirements, they would apply in any country in the world, and I don’t see why Israel shouldn’t be able to maintain the same standards.
I would say things like the establishing of full warm diplomatic relations with the Arab countries (a common expression used here is the ability “to eat hummus in Damascus”), release of the Israeli MIAs and Pollard, Israel gaining full international recognition (allowed on the UN Security Council and other UN bodies, the Israeli Magen David Adom being recognized by the Red Cross, etc.)
Your whole philosphy is based on the assumption that the land you live on is given to you by god. Did you consider that
Comment: I personally believe that all whorshipped gods are the same, which (for me) rules out that god gave some land to a “chosen” people, especially when there are other peoples living on the same land. I if claims like that are justified then the Americans should return their country to the native indians, what do you think about that?
But anyway, the point is, not everybody is a Jewish Orthodox.
Your ideas don’t seem very democratic to me. Allthough I believe that there must be a state for Jews, I truly think that you overshot in your claims. Palestinians lived in this country before it was founded, and the fact that they don’t even have a citizenship now makes me speechless.
What does Pollard have to do with it? That’s a matter between the USA and Israel, is it not?
That may be the case, but it is a goodwill gesture that America can make - and America wants Israel to take risks, make concessions, etc. Particulary, the US would like Israel to release Palestinian prisoners who might endanger Israel’s security, so even to those who think that Pollards actions might have hurt America’s security, his release in America would help public opinion here towards releasing convicted terrorists.
Very sadly, curwin, many of your responses confirm many things I have already heard and suspected of settlers.
This is not the Pit, and not even IMHO, so I can’t express my opinion.
Suffice it to say that I am more than disappointed with your arguments, I was really hoping to have my eyes opened to a new angle, and won’t be returning to this thread.
But thank you anyway for taking the time and effort to do this. I hope it has been of benefit others.
I’m confused–I have a question about the settlements. I guess I really don’t know what they are. My assumption, based on what I know so far, is that they’re when Jews move outside of Israel’s boundaries or borders and set up neighborhoods or towns or whatever. Is this correct? If so, here’s my question. I assume that before the Jews moved to these settlements, other non-Jews lived there. Did the Jews buy the land from them and then move in? Or did they just, for lack of a better word, “squat” there? Or was it just vacant, non-owned land? (If so, I would be surprised at the concept of land that no one owns…) What happened to the people who lived there before the Jews settled there? Were they forced off the land? Did anyone own that land before the Jews moved in? Was the land purchased from them?
I’m having a hard time understanding this, because where I live (United States) practically every square inch of land is owned by somebody, whether it be private citizens, companies, or the government. So if someone wanted to move somewhere, or settle somewhere, they would have to buy or rent the property. Someone could not legally just find a piece of land, build a house and start living there. If that was allowed, I would pack up, go find a nice piece of wooded mountaintop, build a log cabin, and grow a garden. It would cost me practically nothing, and I could live off the land and quit my job, and move out of the suburbs…but I can’t do that, can I?
So I guess what I am asking, is this what the Jews have done? I guess I really need to know what exactly a settlement is before I can understand the big picture of this situation. Thanks so much for answering my question. I am very interested in this topic!
istara wrote
I’m afraid I’m also disappointed, though I’m still along for the ride. In particular the following points are disturbing to me. Could you confirm I’ve got them right, and more importantly, estimate how strong these beliefs are held by the average Israeli? Also, could you answer for yourself and what you estimate the average Israeli would answer:
a) Do you find these views to be in direct conflict with a peace in the region?
b) Do you believe you could change these views (and thereby take actions against them) for peace?
What I believe you’ve called out as your views:
a) The land of Israel was given to Jews by god.
b) Palestinians are not deserving of citizenship there
c) Palestinians are not deserving of their own country, as there are plenty of Arab/Muslim nations that should be willing to take them in.
d) The West Bank is “without question part of the historic Land of Israel.”
e) Settlers should stay in place on disputed land to “fight against Palestinian terrorism.”
f) Palestinians should be allowed to live in Israel, only if they accept Israel as a Jewish state, and a state of which they are not an owner. I.e. Palestinians have two choices: Live in Israel as a guest (or possibly second class citizen) or live somewhere else. Even if they have lived there for generations before the formation of Israel.
g) Palestinians have an “addiction to violence against us (Israelis), and Israeli violence against Palestinians is purely defensive.
Also, I found the scriptures reference interesting. Is your belief (and the common Israeli belief) that the very recent foundation of Israel was prophesied and fulfilled, that there is an element of divine intervention in this?
And I do very much appreciate your setting up this thread. It is very informative.
Oh curwin, where have you gone? I am eagerly awaiting your response to my recent question. This is such an interesting thread, and a topic I really want to learn more about. Hope you will visit this thread again soon!
birdgirl, in the U.S., there really isn’t any land that’s in dispute; all of our borders are well defined. Other places aren’t so lucky. Israel has land that it controls and considers it’s own, but other countries believe they own it and Israel is merely occupying it. (There are many examples of this in the world). As curwin pointed out early on, some of this land isn’t heavily used and so the Israeli government has encouraged Israeli citizens to live there. As time goes on and more people live there and have longtime lives there, it makes it much more difficult to take the land away. Posession is 9/10ths of ownership, as they say.
I still need more help understanding this. Even if the land the settlements are on wasn’t “heavily used,” surely someone must have owned it, or lived there, before the Jewish settlers came. What happened to these people once the Jews came? Was the land purchased from them?
Here’s some analogies: Let’s say I’m out in the country. I see a big empty field, or a big swath of forest, and I think it looks nice, so I just go and build a house and start living there. I can’t do this, now can I? Surely someone owns that land, even if they’re not physically on it. So how could I just start living there?
Another one: Let’s say a group of Native Americans decide to start living in the middle of a national forest, a big piece of land owned by the U.S. Government. OR they could decide to move into a city or suburbs, and just start building houses in people’s backyards. In these hypothetical situations, the Native Americans say it’s their land, and that their people had lived here for thousands of years (which is true), so they’re just taking it back. However, this would not make it OK for them to just start living on land they don’t own, would it? What happens to the people whose backyard they move into? Do they get kicked out?
Someone please explain this to me. Do these analogies (albeit simplistic) fit the Israel situation? I want to know how the Jewish settlers obtain the land–do they purchase it from the previous owners–or do they just take it? What happened to the people who used to live there?
Thanks for clarifying this for me!
Ok, instead of waiting for someone more informed to answer, I’ll interject with personal conjecture. These disputed territories where Israel is encouraging settlement is abandoned as a result of some conflict in the region. The prevous inhabitants that others referred to are probably refugees somewhere, and Israel lays claim to the areas, because they took them in one of several military conflicts. Israel now encourages settlement to solidify their claim. This has been a very helpful thread and I hope curwin knows our appreciation.
“3000 years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Kofax you’re Goddamn right I’m living in the fucking past!”
birdgirl, I don’t mean to be hijacking, and I’m also interested in curwin’s opinion on the matter, just trying to answer what I believe isn’t a matter of opinion, but history (around which there do revolve opinions).
In short, the land passed hands via war. Back and forth several times in some instances. It’s the nature of war that what was legally Deiter’s one day is legally Dimitri’s the next.
Who’s land is it? Are events that happened right or wrong? Who held things first? Is someone entitled to compensation for losing their posessions? You’d think these would be simple questions, but they’re not at all, and in fact the difference of opinions is one of the main reasons for all the bloodshed in the region.
I’m not entirely thrilled the way this thread is going. A lot of the current posts have brought up issues better discussed in either GD or GQ. As far as the factual questions - I’m simply not a historian or a legal expert. I assume that most of you who are writing the questions aren’t experts on the exact legal status of many issues in your countries as well. I’ll try to answer them the best I can, but I won’t allow myself to get trapped in not knowing the answer to a particular factual question. If you want the answer - ask Cecil or ask in GQ. Maybe I’ll answer there, or maybe I won’t, but it’s the correct forum.
As far as the debating questions, as I mentioned earlier, I simply don’t have time or patience for it. Every fifth question in GD discusses Israel’s right to exist, Israel’s right to settlements, Israel’s right to decent ice cream. Feel free to discuss what you want there, but, and I’m not trying to be selfcentered, here, in this thread, I’m trying to answer questions about what it’s like to live here, and how I feel.
With all that, I’ll try to answer some of what was brought up.
I feel that Palestinians are entitled just as much to human and civil rights as Jews or anyone else. The best way to accomplish this is to have them be citizens of one state. If they become citizens of Israel, then they should be entitled the same rights as any ethnic minority in any country. Italian immigrants to America have full civil rights. That does not mean they can kill non-Italians, side with Italy in the case of war between the US and Italy, and work to have Italy take over the US.
Anyone whose lands are taken away should be compensated, but that applies both ways. Are you all aware that around the same number of Arabs who fled in 1948 was the number of Jews expelled from Arab countries, and had their property confiscated? Israel accepted all the refugee Jews with open arms, while the Arab countries kept their Palestinian brothers in refugee camps for political purpose. That is probably the main cause of Palestinian suffering. One reasonable proposal is that the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, etc gain citizenship in those countries, and Israel will drop the material claims against Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, etc.
This is a very important point for understand much of what I’ve written in this thread. Jews and Judaism is not only a religion, it’s a nationality. Until the Roman exile around 70 CE, we lived in this land. And we, the Jewish people, had a moral and legal code that obliged us to keep the Torah - both in terms of relations between man and man, and between man and God. When we were exiled all over the world, we maintained both the religious and national components of our peoplehood. We pray three times a day to return one day to Israel and Jerusalem. We never, never, never, gave up claim to the land. We never accepted our exile. It was always temporary. We viewed the exile as a desecration of God’s name. God went into exile with us, became a refugee as well, so to speak. All of the commandments were meant to be kept in the Land of Israel, because we as a people were meant to live in our country - just as the Chinese live in China. All Zionism means is we’ve come back. For those of you who are interested, look in the first five books of the Bible. The commandments are written in terms of the overall social structure. Even something seemingly as private and personal as the Sabbath, is intended so that the poorer segments of society get to rest. The social goals of Judaism can only be kept when we are repsonsible for our own affairs. Otherwise, they are being kept in an unnatural vacuum.
It is expensive to move and live here and that makes it difficult. But if you compare it to 200 years ago, or even sooner, when the authorities prevented Jews coming here, there is no question it’s much easier. Bottom line, any Jew who wants to can come today. The government even helps out by giving grants for airplane tickets, benefits for new immigrants, etc.
No, a lot of the country, particulary the Negev in the south, and the Galilee in the north is not heavily populated. Israel could certainly handle the other 5 or 6 million Jews remaining in the other parts of the world.
After centuries of persecutions, crusades, pogroms, ghettos, the Holocaust, etc, we finally have a chance to run our own destiny. Hebrew is spoken again. Jews who never had a chance to work the land (agriculturally) can now do so. No one will persecute them for their faith. And if someone comes to attack - we can defend ourselves. These are things that most people around the world take for granted, but after two thousand years of praying for exactly that, it’s an amazing opportunity to be part of it.
A kibbutz is a collective settlement, usually based around agriculture. When I say settlement, I don’t mean a settlement in the territories - the vast majority of kibbutzim are in pre 67 Israel.
Here’s one link: http://www.jafi.org.il/aliyah/olim/firsthome.html#kib
Your post, and another one following it, make this claim. When did I ever make it? Until my last post, I never even mentioned God. You want to find out what I think about God’s role in this? **Ask me. **
First of all, look here for some helpful information and more links about Israel’s settlement policy. As I stated, I’m not a historian. My claims are based on personal experience, what I’ve heard, etc.
The area known as “the territories” or the “West Bank and Gaza Strip” never constitued a Palestinian state. It was part of the League of Nations mandate for a Jewish homeland, controlled by the British from 1917 to 1948. All of the land west of the Jordan was meant to be part of the Jewish state. But due to Arab objections, the UN offered a partition plan in 1947. The Jews accepted the plan (even though it meant giving up major sections promised to them in the original mandate), and the Arabs rejected the plan, and instead went to war. At the end of the war, Israel wasn’t destroyed (as was the Arab’s plan at the time), and the small country made up of less than a million people, many Holocaust survivors, fought off the Arab attackers. They didn’t gain all the area promised in the mandate, but gained a little more than in the partition plan (and some of the area in the partition plan they didn’t capture.) The West Bank was captured by Jordan and the Gaza strip by Egypt. Jordan never annexed the West Bank, and the world never recognized it as part of Jordan. It’s future was to be determined by a final settlement. In 1967, Jordan attacked Israel again, and Israel captured the West Bank. The land in the West Bank, was mostly uninhabited, except for Palestinian cities and towns. As the administrator of the land, the Israeli government could decide what to do with what had been land administered by the Jordanians. Arabs were not kicked out of their homes, and certainly not their towns and cities to build settlements. Most of the settlements are built on hilltops (and the Palestinians tend to live and work in the valleys.) A settlement would be established when the Israeli govt decided to build on an empty hilltop. No one lived there and therefore no one was expelled. There isn’t a parallel in the US now, but I suppose a parallel might have been made to the US during frontier times, after the US conqured land from lets say Mexico. The land today in the US is already divied up, so you can’t find a parallel today.
Didn’t discuss it yet, but if a question is asked, I’ll discuss it.
No I didn’t quite say that. I think that anyone who is a citizen here has full civil and democratic rights, but that doesn’t include treason or overthrowing a state. See my example about the Kurds above. I do think that a solution be arrived at where the Jews maintain a clear demographic majority so to avoid the issues above. That may involve population transfer on both sides - Jews out of the territories, and Palestinians out of Israel.
Again, not quite. Are Oklahomans deserving of their own country? In a way- yes, everyone deserves the right to self determination. Is it the only possible solution to solve the problems? No. Oklahomans can continue to live happily as part of the US, and Palestinians may, if they don’t have their own state, may live happily as part of Israel or Jordan.
This is certainly true. What’s wrong with it? Jews have lived here for thousands of years!
Yes, that’s true. The final status of the land should be arrived at through dialogue, not in the shadow of suicide bombers. If the purpose of the current intifada was to get by violence what couldn’t be achieved in Camp David, then I strongly feel that we should show the terrorists that they will achieve exactly the opposite.
Nope. As I’ve pointed out many times now, they can live here, but as an ethnic minority. Full citizenship on the one hand, singing our national anthem on the other. The UN agreed to the formation of a Jewish state - its destruction or dismantling by military or demographic means should not be allowed. Jews lived in Iraq for far longer than Palestians or any Arabs lived here. And yet, the Iraqis kicked out the Jews and confiscated their property. Part of a final status agreement involves compromising, even for people who’ve lived in a place for generations.
The addiction to violence is found not just by the Palestinians but all over the Arab and Muslim world towards the entire Western world. There have been cases of wanton violence by Jews against Arabs, but they have not been part of the mainstream, they have been condemned by the entire political spectrum, and have been prosecuted fully by the law.
Some of your points provoke these questions, not all your remarks are purely personal.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by curwin *
**Your post, and another one following it, make this claim. When did I ever make it? Until my last post, I never even mentioned God. You want to find out what I think about God’s role in this? **Ask me. **
I reread the whole thread and did not find a reference to God although I was pretty sure that I had read it, so excuse me for that. But anyway, after my posting you do reference God:
This quote explains your view but I will ask you anyway:
curwin, first of all, I’d like to thank you for taking the time to open this thread and for answering all of our questions. You have been very patient and as thorough as possible. While I am still not sure I understand all of the whys and hows of the way that you are living, I definitely respect your views. I had no idea that such a way of life even existed.
It seems to me that much of your reason for choosing your current way of life is based in your religion. I am obviously not Jewish, so I don’t understand all of the beliefs behind those reasons. I do have a question, which may be a slight hijack, that I hope you will be able to answer. If you feel that it is out of place, or don’t want to answer it, just say so.
You seem to believe very strongly in your faith and are obviously trying to carry out its traditions and customs. I don’t know what your feelings are on the idea that God gave Israel to the Jewish people alone. I suppose it would be wise to ask for those feelings, before going any further, although I’m not trying to start a debate.
As a Catholic, it has always been my belief that Christianity, as a whole, is really just an offshoot of Judaism. Obviously, it has changed drastically. But since the foundation of our beliefs is in Jesus, and he was a Jew, it has always made sense to me to think of Christianity as an “evolved” (Meaning different, not better) kind of Judaism. I have no idea how “the church” feels about it. I’ve never asked.
What I’m wondering, given that you and those like you are trying to re-claim land that you belive is yours alone, is this:
Do you believe that Christians have any claim to the land you live in? Since we share the same early religious history, we share many of the same sacred sites. Our religion is founded upon the same beginning events and the same promises made by God. What do you think?
If you’re still up to it, could you comment on the recent confrontation between Jewish settlers and Israeli soldiers in the West Bank?
An article in the Washington Post begins
Thanks.