I think I mostly answered this - I moved to Efrat for practical reasons, and besides inertia, I stay for ideological ones.
I feel my staying here is the best thing I can do to fight against Palestinian terrorism - Arafat thinks by terror he’ll force us to give in - then by staying I show him he’s achieved just the opposite. I will not let anyone think that by killing Jews they will expel us from our land.
I tried explaining this before, but again, I strongly feel that I have every right to live here. If a Jew can live just south of Bethlehem, PA, he can certainly live just south of the original Bethlehem, particulary since Jews have lived here for thousands of years. Now I know that there may some day be territorial compromise, and maybe not all the areas under Israel’s control will remain that way. But in the meantime I get to live here which is a priveledge in its own right, and secondly I stick my finger in Arafat’s eye by showing that we don’t give into terror.
Some aspects of security are stricter here, some less so. There haven’t been suicide bombers on busses here like in the cities, but we have had shootings on the roads, and infiltrations by terrorists. I think we’ve all seen all over the world that the events of the past few years show that no place is really safe. I imagine that even if terrorists really declared that they would try to attack anyone in NYC, most New Yorkers would not leave, but rather say the terrorists must be stopped, not the residents. In this war, where the civilians are on the front, every citizen has to do his duty. That doesn’t mean putting oneself in danger’s way, but by continuing in our routine, we are contributing to the national effort.
There are some subsidies, but they aren’t only for towns in the territories. Any town determined to be in a “development area” or on the “confrontation line” (that includes Israeli communities on the Lebanese border, and in Israel proper near the Green Line) get benefits such as some tax discounts, mortgage discounts and some educational discounts. Also, because of the additional risk of driving, public transportation is also somewhat subsidized. But do to the governments latest economic austerity plan, many of these discounts are being removed.
I find it very hard to get to grips with Zionism as a philosophy. I’d like to ask:
Do you think Palestinians should be able to live in Israel (whether in the West Bank or the pre-1967 borders) alongside Jews, or do you think it should be purely a country for the Jews?
Do you have any Palestinian or Muslim friends? Is there any socialisation between religious/ethnic groups?
Are there many people who are of mixed Arab/Jewish descent? How are they treated, and what rights do they have?
What is the status of Christians where you live? I understand that a significant minority of Palestinians are Christians, and there must be other Christians who come to the area because of religious importance. Are they considered to belong on one side or the other (Jewish or Palestinian), and are they forced to choose sides?
Finally, are many Israelis non-religious (I mean agnostic/atheist)? Do any settlers fall into this group?
Yes, sadly I have. No family members, but of the people I’ve known:
The twenty year old daughter of my neighbors from across the hall, and the stepmother of a friend of mine from the States were both killed in driveby shooting on the way from Efrat to Jerusalem.
The sister of a friend of mine was killed by a shooting on a bus, when she was on the way to tutor mentally handicapped children during her vacation.
Plus in almost every terrorist attack it is possible to find someone you sort of know, or at least one other person you know knows. There is rarely more than two degrees of separation when it comes to these things in Israel. As I’m typing this now, there is a report of a terrorist attack in the center of Jerusalem - I hear 14 killed. (If I hadn’t been staying late at work, I would have been at the site of the attack when the bomber struck.) The odds are likely that someone I know will be affected.
How has it affected my opinion of Palestinians? That’s a hard one. On the one hand I think they’re responsible for their own actions, and should be treated as such. On the other hand centuries of hate and xenophobia, and current horrible corrupt leadership, with the media full of incitement makes me think that they’re possibly incapable of ending the addiction to violence against us. Maybe the reaction would be similar to how someone feels about an alcoholic drunk driver killing someone close to them. On the one hand, it was his own fault for getting drunk, and becoming an alcoholic, on the other hand someone who is addicted to alcohol is really out of control.
The truth is, that Christianity behaved similarly towards the Jews for centuries. But after the Holocaust they realized it had to end. That’s what happened in Vatican II. To continue my alcoholic metaphor, the Christian world stood up and said “I’m an alcoholic, I have a problem, and it must stop.” This was with a tremendous change in the basis of their faith. I’m still waiting for the Islamic world to do the same. After 9/11 I thought maybe, but it looks like they just looked for other people to blame.
But even with my mixed feelings, no one claims that drunk drivers shouldn’t be restrained - licences revoked, and even imprisoned. So while I may have pity on the situation that the Palestinians have gotten themselves into, I’m careful enough not to allow that to endanger my security.
I’m not a stickler for things that aren’t really part of liberty. I don’t mind having my bags looked at, going through checkpoints, carrying an ID card. I’m ok - I don’t have anything to worry about. The liberty I don’t want taken away is the right to live where I want, believe what I want, etc. The rest is not as significant to me.
I consider myself an American immigrant to Israel. Certainly my American upbringing contributes much to my personality, not to speak of my accent in Hebrew. But my loyalty is to Israel.
I don’t get many benefits of American citizenship, other than it’s easier for me to get in and out of America with my US passport.
I don’t miss the US much. Part of it may be that I live in a place like Efrat, with a large number of Anglos, and I can speak English often, and have friends who have a common cultural background. Naturally, I miss my family - I hope someday they come and live here. At one point I missed the food more - but now you can get most American products that I liked there. Ah, here’s something I do miss - American customer service. Much better there than here.
This isn’t directly related to my living in a settlement, but on kibbutz it was harder to acclamate. There everyone had grown up together and we never really fit in.
I was born in the US - in Northampton, MA. I moved as a baby to Rochester, NY, then at age 12 to San Francisco. After high school I spent three years in Israel, then came back to the states and lived in Boston for 3 years. And we moved from Boston to Israel seven years ago.
On a halachic (Jewish law) level, yes I believe that Jews are violating their religious laws by not living in Israel, particulary today when there is no real obstacle to moving here. But the afterlife isn’t what concerns me - or in my eyes, Judaism. We’re a religion must more concerned with this world. An ancient Jewish saying is: “The punishment of sin is sin.” It’s kind of like the punishment of being late to the airport is missing your plane, not having to stand in the back of the airport and write 500 times “I will not be late.” (That’s one of my father’s analogies). By not living in Israel, a Jew is passing up on the opportunity to live a full Jewish life (many of the commandments can only be kept here) and is not contributing to the renewal of the Jewish people. And that’s a shame.
Wow, this is a great thread. What a wonderful way to put a human face on all of this.
I have a very simple question…
Is it more expensive to live in Israel than to live in the US?
I don’t really have a lot of factual information about these questions. I can tell you that there are a number of foreign workers who live in Efrat and aren’t Jewish (Romanian, Thai, Sri Lanka, etc.) But they aren’t citizens. In general it is difficult for non-Jews to become Israeli citizens, but the new Interior minister is making it easier in some cases (like athletes from other countries.) But if you’re a citizen, you can come and live here - no one will stop you based on religion. For example, non-Jewish spouses of Jews can move to Israel and become citizens, and I don’t see anyone giving them a problem about living here.
For the past few years, Israel’s economic situation has been pretty lousy, and that has affected standard of living, unemployment, government benefits etc. So that in itself has made it more expensive here.
But overall, some things are cheaper (food, rent) where as others are more expensive (appliances, gas, imported products).
You can basically get by on a much lower salary here than in the States, and you also will have to.
Yes, they should be allowed to live here if they accept Israel as a Jewish state and as their state. I don’t think a Bulgarian immigrant or native Mohawk in the US should be allowed to act in a way that rejects the United States as the legitimate ruler of America.
I don’t have any friends personally who are Arab or Muslim, but I do have acquaintances - there are a number of Arabs and Muslims where I work.
I’m not sure quite what you mean - around half the country is descended from Jews who lived and were later expelled from Arab and Muslim countries. They have full rights.
There aren’t really many cases of mixed marriages between Muslims and Jews. In all the ones I’ve ever heard of Jewish women married Muslim men and became Muslim. If they were to live in Israel they would be treated like Israeli Arabs - which basically means full rights. If they lived in the territories, they would be treated like Palestinians - I don’t know if they would maintain their Israeli citizenship.
I’m not a big expert here. Most of the native Christians are Arab, and sympathize with the Arab cause, although many are bitter at the Palestinian leadership’s persecution of non-Muslim Arabs.
As far as non-Arab Christians - I think they run the gambit. Some are incredibly pro-Israel, while others completely are on the Arab side. I would guess it has to do with a combination of their religious denomination and personal opinions.
I think that somewhere around 80% of Israelis are not religous, but maybe around 50% keep some traditions. The settlers are more likely to be religious. Many settlements are entirely religious, but there are a number of mixed settlements, while others are entirely secular.
Thanks for volunteering this thread. I’ve been enlightened on several things already by it.
My first question: You, and several others, have referred to your living in, simply, Israel. Not “Israeli-occupied territory”, not “Palestinian territory”, not “the West Bank”, but, simply Israel. I know you’re a Zionist, and I presume most other settlers are (please say so otherwise), but is it really conventional wisdom among you that Israel encompasses everything west of the Jordan, as that implies? If not, where does it stop?
My second question, linked to the first: Do the settlers see themselves as promoting or blocking a peace settlement, or as nonfactors?
I can’t really say. It really depends on how things work out. If there’s only going to be a cold peace, and the Arabs - both Palestinians and others - will continue to incite to Israel’s destruction, then I say hold on to the territories, and build more and more settlements, maybe even annex the territories (although I don’t really know how to deal with the demographic problem of absorbing 3 million Palestinians into Israeli democracy.)
If there is a Palestinain sea change - then maybe a settlement that includes territorial compromise, but on both sides. One solution that I could see working out in such a circumstance would be Israel annexing major settlement blocks, and giving up areas in the West Bank and all of Gaza (but not Jerusalem, except some Arab neighborhoods). In exchange, I think Israel could give the nascent Palestinian state some parts of pre-67 Israel with large Arab populations (particularly in the Galilee) thereby easing the demographic crisis that might occur here in the decades to come.
What I think in such a circumstance will be the hardest nut to crack is not Jerusalem, settlements or refugees, but how the West Bank and Gaza will be hooked up. Right now they are not contiguous. Even if you build tunnels or bridges or whatever, either the Palestinians are going to get a split country (and always want a united one) or the Israelis will end up with a split country (and always want a united one). The best solution would have been if Sadat was willing to take Gaza when Begin offered it in the 70s, but he rejected the offer.
Just by asking the question you’ve already given part of the answer - or at least dispelled the conventional wisdom in the Western media about it being black and white.
The West Bank was conquered by Jordan in 1948, but there was no body that recognized it as being part of Jordan, there was no treaty between Israel and Jordan and Jordan rejected claim to it in 1988. It is now at best “disputed”, and the final status will be determined by negotiations. It is now certainly administered by Israel, and it is without question part of the historic Land of Israel.
You got all kinds. It depends on the peace deal, and it depends on the settler. There are peace deals that 90% of the settlers would like to try and block, and there are settlers who would block 90% of any deals offered. But all settlers would like to live in peace, in the sense of no more war and violence. It’s just the question of how we get there.
Forgive me my ignorance but I did not know this. Since there is no palestinian state, what are palestinians? Don’t they have a citizenship?
Question: Do you agree on the need and right of the palestinians to have a state, if yes, where? and more important? Will you stay if it happens and it will
It is hard to resist discussing ME politics and concentrating on your personal life when you post statements like this…
IMO simply ignoring that there are people in your country with a different religion and a different culture will not help the peace process.
This quote interested me. Do you think that all or most of Palestinian (or Israeli) suffering have internaly caused roots? Or should the other side (or maybe a healthy mix of both) accept a little blame for the current situation?
As an American born Jew who chooses to live life as an Israeli settler how do you feel that you (well not you, but settlers in general) are sited for much of the current conflicts between Israel and Palestine?
Do you feel your realigon (or if you see it, ethnicity) entitles you to land in the Disputed or Oppcupied Territories?
Would you accept a peace deal if it meant you had to leave your home or stop being an Israeli? (I don’t know if this one was asked before?)
Thank you for opening this thread, you have been very helpful.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, curwin. If you don’t mind, there are a couple of things in your answers I’d like you to explain in a little more detail.
Do you feel the same liberties should be given to the Palestinians whose homes/lands were taken away by the formation of Isreal? If a group of Palestinians wanted to live in your settlement, would the be allowed to? I’m not attempting to get all political or start a flamewar here, it’s an honest question.
in an answer for a question by hyperjes, you wrote:
What commandments of the Jewish faith can only be kept in Israel? When I first read it, I thought you were referring to the Ten Commandments, but they say nothing of the sort.
Thanks for your time in answering, we do really appreciate it.
Many of the agricultural commandments only apply in Israel. For example, the commandment of shmitta (not working the Land every seventh year) only applies in Israel and not anywhere else. Likewise, the blessing that the kohanim (priests) recite is done daily in Israel (whereas only on major festivals outside of Israel). There are other commandments as well.
Zev Steinhardt
curwin earlier, in answering a question from jjimm about probable responses regarding the eviction of settlers, you said
I am wondering what you mean by sweetening of the pot- are you speaking of money or something else?
zev,
Why can’t these commandments be applied anywhere else? Is there a justification in scripture or is it an arbitrary decision? Is there anything preventing a priest in New York or California from reciting this blessing every day? Likewise, why can’t the Jewish farmers in Iowa (yes, there are Jewish farmers in Iowa) avoid working a specific field every seventh year?
Just asking, as this has aroused my curiousity. I can’t recall any other major religon that requires you to live in a certain place in order to fulfill the commandments of that religion. Well, execept for possibly the Muslim who needs to face East for prayer whilst standing on the North Pole… 
**
There is a general rule (although not absolute) in Jewish law that commandments that are dependent upon the land (such as agricultural commandments, including the Sabbatical year commandment) are only applicible in the land of Israel. If a farmer in Iowa wanted to rest his field every seventh year, he’s certainly welcome to, but he is not commanded to.
I’m not certain as to the reason that the Priestly blessings are not recited outside of Israel, inasmuch as it is not a commandment that is “dependent on the land.” That is something that would require further research on my part.
Judaism indeed has such rules and regulations. Sometimes, the source for this ruling can be found directly in Scripture. For example, regarding the Sabbatical Year, the Torah (Leviticus 25:2) starts off the section stating “When I bring you into the land that I am giving to you, the land will rest…” The opening clause “When I bring you into the land…” indicates that this commandment only applies in the land of Israel. Other commandments (kashrus for example [See Leviticus 11]) contains no qualifying clause, and is therefore applicable in all locations.
Zev Steinhardt