Ask the Mormon

I haven’t forgotten about your question and I plan to try to answer it as best I can but I’ve been very depressed over 2 deaths in the family so I haven’t been able to concentrate well enough to put all the factors together in any kind of logical, understandable way.

There are many factors that were “in play” at the time that have to be included in looking at what was going on in the Church’s history at the time the practice of taking another wife was introduced.

It did end in the gay 90s but it started before so just looking at the raw census numbers for the state of Utah in 1890 does not provide an accurate picture. Those numbers represent the situation when the practice was being outlawed, not when it was being established.

Also, those are raw numbers. Not everyone living in Utah at the time were members of the LDS church (although the majority certainly were) and there were also members who had become inactive.

There were factors such as the number of men who had lost their lives making the trip to Utah whether it be because of the hardships of the trip, illness, Indian attacks, etc., or because of the people who attacked them in various cities along the way, in some cases they shot or hung them, other times they did literally tar and feather them and countless other ways.

I’ve always heard the part about there not being enough men to take care of the women too. But once I got into doing family history and church history, I found out there are tons of factors that need to be considered to truly give an accurate picture of the situation at the time.

Ideas such as:

although that certainly is a logical viewpoint, it never has been officially expressed from the Church leadership as a reason.

And you know, I’ve done my best to keep the information contained in this thread as factual as possible mixed with the healthy exchange of viewpoints, so I feel the need to tell you that that may well have been part of the consideration in some peoples minds, even in the Church leadership, but it’s never been an official statement as to the reason.

I’ve also heard that same premise used to explain away why homosexuality can’t be an accepted position from a church “because the church would die off”.

There were factors like the Mormon Battalion being formed and sent to California and also men being sent to fight in the Mexican-American war.

I can’t even remember when the Edmunds-Tucker act went into effect. I can’t remember how many men were called … yes, CALLED, as in a Church calling, by the First Presidency of the church to take another wife. It was some small percentage of the membership, but my mind fails me on the numbers so badly… once side of my head thinks I remember 2-5% of the male members of the church and the other side of my head thinks it was more like 20-25% of the male members.

The point there is you couldn’t just do it for the fun/heck of it. It was a church calling and you had to prove you could provide for the other wife/wives. I don’t remember all of the requirements, but it was more then squeezing over and making room for another woman in your home/bed.

The first wife had to give her consent. If she wasn’t comfortable with the idea, it was dropped. Many of the men built separate housing for the additional wife/wives.

Ow, my head’s hurting trying to make it think so much. :frowning:

If you want more specific information then what I’ve just provided, let me know and as soon as I can pull myself out of this depression, I’ll hit the books and internet again and get it all together for you.

If this answers your question well enough, pls let me know that too so I won’t keep stressing over it.

If anyone still has questions, please ask them. It would do me good to focus on something…

But maybe something more simple like the Mountain Meadows Massacre. That’s controversial enough and certainly not a pretty picture of the Church, but not the most difficult thing to answer like polygamy. :wink:

Kathy

sorry if this has already been asked, but here goes anyways…

is it true that mormons believe that the husband decides whether to let his wife enter heaven or leave her in the grave?

my uncle (well, ex-uncle i guess?) became mormon for this reason when he divorced my aunt.

Maybe it was never Official Doctrine, but I think the scripture from the BoM that I cited supports my viewpoint.

Pepperlandgirl, I believe the scripture you quoted from the BoM does not support your theory.

You quoted from Verse 27, which specifically prohibits polygamy: “For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.” As does verse 24 which states that “many wives and concubines…are abominable to me, saith the Lord.” Verse 25 states: “Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.” Then in Verse 26 the Lord gives his reason: “Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.”

The real meaning in Verse 30, is that parents (one wife, one husband) should raise up children to fear God and do his Word.

Make sense now? The BoM actually teaches against polygamy.

gypsymoth3 (btw, I like your name), you asked a very good question. Although part of the answer has been discussed before, this specific aspect has not been asked. Even though Heaven, Eternal Life and being Eternally Sealed to your spouse have been discussed earlier, the thread is really long now, so I’ll do a review here so you don’t have to scan hundreds of posts to get all of the answer.

If I understand this correctly the concept of how Heaven is set up is unique to the LDS Church so is kind of strange if this is the first time you’ve heard it. The Church teaches that there are three levels (with sub-levels in each of the three levels) in Heaven.

The highest level is called the Celestial Kingdom. This is where Heavenly Father is. If you’ve lived an exemplary life and have joined the LDS Church and been to the temple, sealed to your spouse and lived up to the promises you make to God in the temple, you can attain this level of Heaven living with Heavenly Father and your family for eternity.

The second level is called the Terrestrial Kingdom. This is where the very good people who have lived their lives to the best of their ability, but have not done the other things necessary to reach the Celestial Kingdom will spend the rest of eternity.

The third level is call the Telestial Kingdom. This is where the people who have lived very bad lives will be going.

As you can tell from what I’ve said, to reach the Celestial Kingdom, you have to be sealed to your spouse (that means married in a LDS temple) and both of you have to have lived in such a way as to be worthy of being together for eternity. So, in this situation, I guess you could say

to an extent, but not exactly. Good people will be going to heaven and it’s up to God to determine what level of “exaltation” each of us will attain. No one will be spending the rest of eternity in their grave so to speak and it’s not up to your husband to determine where you will be going. Does that make sense? I hope so, but if it doesn’t, let me know what’s not clear and I’ll try to explain it again so you are able to understand the belief.

Your ex-uncle clearly doesn’t understand how this works if his reason for becoming a Mormon was so he could keep your Aunt from going to Heaven.

He and your Aunt would have had to be sealed to each other in the Temple for that to be an option, AND, you are not “stuck”. By that, I mean you have a choice. IF they had been sealed and both lived lives worth of the Celestial Kingdom, if for some reason either party doesn’t want to be with the other person or want to be in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, free agency (the freedom to make your own choices) allows you to say yes or no.

Please do let me know if I didn’t make it clear. Through out this thread, I’ve been open to explaining something as often as necessary for someone to understand it. Also, there have been other LDS members of the SDMB who have been answering questions too, and sometimes one of them has been able to explain it better.

Kathy

AFAIK, being sealed and married was only a requirement for entering the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, not just to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Well, it taught that the Nephites were not to practice polygamy. In fact you yourself quoted a scripture:

I can’t begin to fathom why polygamy was practiced and sanctioned at some times and not others. AFAIK, Moses, Joseph, and Jacob of the Old Testament all had more than one wife, and eventually the LDS church did away with it as did the ancient Jews, because it had it’s time and place. In the Book of Mormon, polygamy had no place among the Nephites.

Just a note to say that as an LDS member, I have enjoyed this thread a great deal. Everytime I thought about posting a response to a question, I found the answer posted by others on the board to be thorough and well researched. Thanks to all for being willing to ask and for being willing to research and answer.

Back to lurking…

Level3Navigator Welcome to the boards!!!

And TYVM…you made my day :smiley:

How is Utah? I miss it so much.

Kathy

I am dating an LDS member that is divorced (wife cheated on him). We will do pretty much everything except have actual intercourse. Can a divorced mormon man be excommunicated for sex after divorce?

Nm

Re: Zombie Mormons. Q: Is this sacrilegious?

No, just dumb dumb dumb.

Welcome to the boards, Clueless7272.

Note that the thread you bumped is ten years old. I might suggest starting a new thread for your question.

IANAMormonoraModeratororaLawyer.

Regards,
Shodan

Or just ask a Morman church official.
Peace,
mangeorge

Wow, completely did not expect to see this thread resurrected.

Well, if you’re still reading, Clueless7272: technically any member of the LDS church can be excommunicated for sexual relations outside of marriage. So if he doesn’t marry you but has sex with you, then yes, he can be excommunicated. Practically speaking, he would probably be disfellowshipped first (kind of like probation) and encouraged to get married, then be excommunicated if he didn’t.

About the “actual intercourse” part of her question; she seems (as do many people)
to feel that without penetration it isn’t sex. Does the Mormon church support that idea?
mangeorge

No see that’s the thing. I don’t think that at all. I would figure after doing a little studying that oral sex would be the same. He has no issue with that. That is why I am so confused. Might I note I am not LDS…

It’s up to your boyfriend’s definition of sex, and how much his bishop (ecclesiastical leader) will dig into the situation. 1) Your boyfriend may never even mention your relationship unless he requests a meeting with his bishop and the subject comes up; 2) if the subject comes up, pretty much the most the bishop can ask is “Are you keeping the law of chastity? Do you view pornography?” The bishop is not supposed to ask specifics unless your boyfriend volunteers them or asks for clarification.

Having said those things, if your boyfriend believes that your fooling around is the same as sex, or if the bishop talks to him and your boyfriend says, “Well, here’s what’s been happening,” then that means he has to say no to the bishop’s question. What would happen next is probably what I outlined in my previous reply.

If your boyfriend confesses to sexual intimacy with you and has no intention of marrying you, his bishop will have a range of options available but will probably not immediately go for excommunication.

Oops, my mistake. I did indeed assume you were. And I’m not prone to assumption. Sorry.
From my personal observation you’re going to a hard row to hoe being in a relationship with a Mormon if you’re not one.
Good luck. I mean that

So what I am reading is technically he could be excommunicated right now because of sexual relations… Hmmm. He absolutely will not have sex with me that I know…and I respect. Just not really sure what I think of all this. I really care for him…great person but what I thought would be cut and dry isn’t.

Mangeorge…can you elaborate? I will say we come from VERY different worlds. He was a virgin when he got married. I have never been married but I am certainly not a virgin.

Just looking for a little guidance. I really appreciate all of your help… Both of you! :slight_smile: