I’ll toss in that I have a friend who is married to a Mormon, and he is not. They have been married for somewhere over 20 years, probably over 25, and maybe over 30. It seems to have worked out just fine.
N/m
I am a former Mormon and am married to a non-Mormon. Mixed marriages can have a load of issues but are generally much more successful than marriages where both people start as Mormons and one suddenly decides not to be one. That is a REALLY tough situation and rarely has a positive outcome in my experience.
Anyway, as for the original question. The boyfriend sounds a bit neurotic if he thinks that not putting his penis in a vagina is going to save him some penance down the road. As noted, as a (now) single Mormon he’s not supposed to be having any sexytimes, regardless of the location on a female body. He almost certainly wouldn’t be excommunicated for this; but he would likely get disfellowshipped or something else more minor but still potentially embarrassing.
I guess my advice depends on how serious the relationship is and how much you miss penetrative sex. If it doesn’t bother you, then let him worry about his weird hang ups. If you want something more (in either sense) then tell him to grow up and either stop being scared of some potential church discipline, or only date other Mormon women who will kiss chastely until the second wedding. He sounds a bit immature to me. But if it’s just casual, who cares?
Well SMT, Erdosian has covered this much better than I can (thanks).
One thing that pops into my memory is from a Morman friend of mine from back in the 70’s. according to him the punishment for infidelity was much more severe for a woman than for a man. Also, wives were expected to remain attractive (slender?) for her husband. Something about greeting him when he came home.
Oops, and Clueless7272. :smack:
Mormon married to non-Mormon. It’s mostly awesome, but there are some things that are not quite so awesome. Some of these may be applicable to your situation and some will not be so applicable.
Mormons tend to have a very close-knit religious and social group; in fact, the vast majority of their socialization will tend to be with other Mormons, often in the context of sponsored church events. If you don’t mind this, it can be really cool to have Instant Community. On the other hand, I think my husband would prefer if I weren’t always dragging him to the ward Christmas party, or the barbeque that the Elders Quorum was putting on, or ditching him to go to the third baby shower this month. This is less likely to be a problem for you, since women have a lot more social activities and outlets, and are more likely to be managing the social scene, and hey, you might actually like hanging out with his ward (whereas my husband would much rather stay at home).
Mormons have a lot of church responsibilities, more so than any other church I have ever come across. (My in-laws probably spend as much time helping out at their church as I do, but it’s much more something they do because they want to rather than because they’re expected to.) Besides three-hour church on Sundays, we have “callings” (church jobs) which may take anywhere from no time during the week to hours and hours. Men have “home teaching” where they are supposed to visit the home of possibly several other people once a month. Every so often we have to give a talk in Sacrament meeting (prepare a 10-17 minute speech). And then there’s the part where you can get called at the last minute to sub in for that teacher who’s sick. My husband can sometimes get a little irked that I am spending my time and energy on church projects instead of on our family, especially when I leave household chores undone because I absolutely have to prepare that lesson before tomorrow, or go to that visiting teaching appointment I set up last week.
Also, people will always be trying to convert you. I mean, if your boyfriend is in a good tactful ward they will probably be somewhat circumspect about it, but you may expect the missionaries to be extremely friendly to you, and people bugging your boyfriend about having the missionaries over for dinner, etc.
You may also be occasionally offended by things Mormons say without thinking about it, or even if they do think about it. For example, last week we had a talk in church where someone told a story about how she made the decision not to marry outside of the Church, because she wanted the priesthood in her home, she wanted her husband to be able to bless her kids, etc. This woman actually approached me beforehand to see if I would be offended, and I said, of course not, her experience is not mine, etc. However, my husband has reacted badly to such things in the past – it makes him feel like a second-class citizen to know that people might think like that about our marriage (even though I’m pretty sure they don’t – they know I’m a very different beast than the prototypical Molly Mormon), and I’d have definitely warned him beforehand if he had come to church with me that day.
As regards your other question, Mormons can sometimes be curiously naive when it comes to questions of sex, since it’s tiptoed around. Your boyfriend could very well think that non-penetrative sex doesn’t trip the chastity requirements. I thought similar things for a very long time, because I was naive and knew nothing about sex and figured that penetrative sex was the only kind you needed to worry about because that was the kind that made babies.
Wow. Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply! Fist off:
Erdosain… I like you! This man seems to have it all together in all other aspects of life. That is why this is so confusing. Do I miss sexy time? HELL yes. So much I can hardly stand it. And this is a tease. Like I said earlier if nothing was going onic would understand, but everything else is and it makes it so difficult! It bothers me tons. This is pretty serious and that is why I even ask these questions. If it old him to grow up… With as involved as he is with his church… Pretty sure this would be over.
Mangeorge…your comment made me giggle since I am a workaholic. Though I do try to stay in shape me being Donna reed probably won’t happen.
Rasberry hunter… Thank you for all of that. I must say, to this point everyone has been welcoming and so nice. I have met a lot of his friends, two of his brothers and his kids. So far no one has tried to convert me and they understand who I am and where I come from. With that said I could totally see them trying to do so in the future. They come from a long bloodline and all of them married Mormons. To be honest I don’t thinking I have met anyone through him that is not mormon. I think I am the only one. I know he would never convert and I am pretty sure I would have to for this to continue. Didn’t know Mormons were even allowed to marry non Mormons! Quite a dilemma.
Thank you all!
I couldn’t find it here, but have you talked to him about all this? Generally that’s pretty important.
We are beginning to talk about all this. Just wanted an outside perspective since I am not very intelligent on the subject… But I am learning…some things he is definitely more open to talk about than others. He definitely dodges the sex discussion saying abstains purely due to religion.
I’m glad you’re finding my rambling useful!
Erdosain, I totally see where you’re coming from (I think we’ve talked on other Mormonism threads, too), but yeah, I would also think it was pretty obnoxious if someone told me to grow up because of my attitude towards sex. I mean, it’s one thing to have a discussion about how our attitudes differ and how mine might be affected, perhaps negatively, by how I was raised, but it’s sort of condescending to tell an adult partner to grow up, whether it’s because of my attitudes towards sex or my sometimes troubled and sometimes a bit immature relationship with my mom (unrelated to religion).
Clueless7272, I do second mangeorge – it’s pretty important to talk to him about this if you are getting serious. Not just the sex stuff, which I see from your latest comment you’ve tried to talk about, but expectation stuff in general. (Parenthetically, I’m not sure I would call that dodging; he probably doesn’t want to talk about sex, given that I’m sure he’d like to have sex with you, and since the explanation really is “my religion says not to,” there’s not much to talk about, right?) Presumably he’s in it looking to get married (if for no other reason than that I bet he wants sex as much as you do). Is that what you want? Has he said you would have to convert before he would consider marrying you?
Mormons can marry non-Mormons, but they cannot have what is called a “temple marriage” and what Mormons believe is necessary for the highest stage of exaltation. Most Mormons will not consider marrying a non-Mormon for that and other reasons. That being said, the fact that he has been divorced from, presumably, a Mormon, may affect his attitude a little; I suspect he would rather marry a non-Mormon who wouldn’t cheat on him than a Mormon who would! (I know at least one Mormon who married a non-Mormon and whose marriage is much, much happier than her first Mormon marriage which disintegrated in flames.)
That being said: are you willing to give Mormonism a shot for the sake of this guy (whom it sounds like you think is pretty awesome)? Mormonism has a lot of, hm, interesting doctrines that may or may not be troublesome for you. On the other hand, most Mormons I know are genuinely nice people, and probably nicer and better people (I know I am) because of their religion rather than otherwise, and maybe that’s a draw for you; I have a lot of problems with the theology but in the end have stayed because I think it makes me a better person and because the community aspects were really important to me.
Would he be willing to stay with you / marry you if you “investigated” the church and decided you were not willing to join, but were willing to support him in his church callings, etc., and maybe even go to church with him once in a while? Would you be willing to stay with him and support his church activities? [Pro tip: if this happens to be the case, and he has an issue with it and/or you, tell him a Mormon told you to tell him to watch President Uchtdorf’s talk from the October 2013 Conference. 
]
I don’t know how old you are, but if children are a possibility, expect that they will have to be raised Mormon. That will be a nonnegotiable point. And that has its own pitfalls, but man, this is long enough; maybe I’ll save that for another post if you want to hear about that.
I dunno; I think “grow up” is pretty fair. 
Hear me out.
He’s refusing to have a certain type of sex. Why? Because of his religion? No, all sex is forbidden. He’s depriving his girlfriend of a pretty standard (most would say essential) part of their relationship because he’s trying to avoid a slightly harsher punishment when he finally owns up to his “sin.”
To me, it seems pretty selfish to put his girlfriend’s wants/needs second to something as insignificant as the difference in sin between oral and regular sex.
It should also be pointed out that Mormonism frowns on this sort of pre-sin planning. I guess I’m saying if he wants to be a believer, fine. Be a big boy and take his lumps for “sinning.” But his current behavior shows his priorities crystal clear: 1) Avoid minor embarrassment, 2) consider girlfriend’s wants and feelings.
This is fine for a casual relationship, but if the OP is looking for a more serious relationship, she should insist on better. IMHO.
Kudos on successfully reviving a 10 year old thread… i think
Erdosain… Well put. Now to copy and paste this to an email… ;). Seriously though. We are all grown ups here. I feel like there is a double standard going on here on his part. There is a definite serious physical attraction on both parts, which is obvious when we are together. Just not sure how much longer I can do without…
Ah, I see! Thanks for clarifying; that does make a good bit more sense, and I agree that if that is his rationale then perhaps an injunction to grow up is in order
You’re a guy, and I’m not, so you probably have more insight into this… but let me just say that I feel kind of the same way as her boyfriend. For years and years and years I heard about how terrible extra/pre-marital sex was, and I had really no frame of reference for sex except that it meant penetrative sex, because it was misusing the power of procreation, it had bad effects like extramarital pregnancy, etc. (Funny story: as you know, the youth are always told not to neck and pet, but I never actually knew what that meant until I was in my 30’s and I finally heard some talk where they actually spelled out what that meant. Now, yes, you would be correct to say that I didn’t really want to know so that I could keep on doing whatever it was I was doing, and yeah, I was doing quite a bit of that. But it’s not like anyone actually did a lot of defining of these terms either.)
As a result, penetrative sex has a sort of sin-mystique to it for me that other kinds of making out / sex don’t, and quite frankly if I were in a non-marriage relationship right now, I’d probably be acting the same as her boyfriend, and not really think too hard about reporting it to my bishop, whereas if we were to have penetrative sex I would definitely feel like I would not be able to answer no honestly if the bishop asked me if I were keeping the law of chastity. (I don’t have a temple recommend, and if it were me, I would probably just try to avoid talking privately to the bishop, because I’m like that, but that’s not going to necessarily be a working strategy for your average temple-attending Mormon.)
There’s also the knotty problem of, well, either one owns one’s sexual behavior or not. If one doesn’t – if one has sex and then is like, oh, oops, just kidding, haha, – I dunno, that doesn’t seem right to me. If you own it, if you say, “Yep, I’m going to have sex and I’m not going to stop,” they can’t really not disfellowship you, and to me that’s a big deal, it’s not “minor embarrassment.” Not to be able to do my calling, not to be able to participate in the life of the church, the community… it would be like losing a part of myself, a part of my identity. Someone who couldn’t understand that, someone who couldn’t understand that I find that more important than sex, is not someone I would want to be dating.
shrug I mean, yes, I have hangups, and I realize this isn’t exactly strictly rational-consistent behavior? But it’s not a case of putting embarrassment before the feelings of my hypothetical boyfriend, it’s a case of actual ways that I think (or have been conditioned to think, if you’d rather put it that way).
Missed the edit window:
Clueless7272, here’s the bottom line: if he’s the kind of faithful Mormon your posts have led me to expect, the most likely scenario in my opinion (Erdosain, I would be interested in hearing your take on this) is that you can expect not to get any (penetrative) sex from him until (if) you get married. If you do happen to get sex from him, it will probably be rare, be accompanied by a LOT of guilt and angst, and probably force the marriage question as well. If that doesn’t work for you, then maybe this is not the relationship for you. And that’s fine; dating a Mormon is not for everyone
ETA: That being said, practically all the married Mormons I know of either gender are extremely enthusiastic about sex, so, y’know. There’s that.
I’m 68 and have had some relationships. One thing I would never (again) allow myself to do would be to establish a committed relationship with someone until we had shared much varied sex. And the intimacy that goes with it.
Rasberry hunter you are spot on with how he feels, his thoughts and beliefs. I respect that and for that reason I feel like I would be a horrible person to tell him “sex or I’m gone.” Don’t get me wrong… I can tell by the other relations we have had it would be nothing less than amazing and I want to have sex so bad with him I can’t see straight. He knows this and apologizes all the time and says it is certainly not because he doesn’t want to. I still just feel like it’s a double standard. Would it be wrong of me to say well if we are going to go this route then let’s do it the “right way” (I.e.no oral for you)? Yes I have had sex in the past but it has always been in a relationship where I had very deep feelings for the other person.
Long story short he is worth it. I am just insanely frustrated because the ball has always been in my court and now it is not.
To answer your previous post of course I would support him in the church and activities and whatever he wanted. Would I convert? I don’t know the answer to that. I have done a little studying because I wouldn’t convert just for him… I would have to believe in the religion and some of it seems a little bogus to me. With that said I like the overall context. Well to do people… Very family oriented. Everyone knows I am not LDS and yet have been so welcoming and friendly. Guess something I would have to tackle when it arises.
Another question. Is a temple marriage null and void if a spouse cheats on her husband and is excommunicated from the church?
Thanks for all of your help!
I’m pretty surprised, raspberry hunter, that you’d draw enough of a distinction between oral and vaginal sex to change your answer to “Do you obey the Law of Chastity?” In other words, you’d “yadda-yadda” oral sex! (Apologies if you’re not a Seinfeld fan.) I guess what I’m trying to say is that if you’re going to evade the truth in a priesthood interview, what’s the point, really?
I agree with this and I think this guy isn’t owning it. He’s trying to have his cake and a blowjob too by exploiting some imaginary loophole that exists only in his mind. Just to reiterate the answer to the original question, no, there is no bright-line distinction between oral and vaginal sex in Mormonism. Both are prohibited outside of marriage. This guy may think he’s getting away with something, but I think he’s just deluding himself at the expense of his girlfriend.
I have a couple different thoughts about this. I guess the most salient one is that this guy has already chosen what is more important to him right now; the oral sex is already a disfellowshipable offense. If he cared that much about temporarily losing his participation at church, he wouldn’t be getting blowjobs on the regular.
Maybe I’m overly cynical, but I would wager that for most people, being disfellowshipped or barred from the sacrament is 90% embarrassment, 10% spiritual anguish. That’s why they are such effective disciplinary tools. Obviously, I may be a little biased on this topic, but I’ve never met anyone who would be bereft at suddenly not being able to do his home teaching. I know plenty who would be mortified at suddenly being outed as a sinner to the entire congregation.
Ahh that all makes total sense too! I don’t know what the hell to do!!!
I think you may just need to hash this out with him, Clueless. Straight out ask him why regular sex would be more sinful than oral. Then ask if his bishop would agree with what he just answered. It just seems a bit unequal in a relationship; one side is making rules and the other has no way of verifying whether these are real reasons or just excuses.
I don’t want to pry into your sex life and I hope this is not too personal, Clueless7272, but I hope he is reciprocating on the oral front. Otherwise, my opinion of this guy and his motives would change significantly for the worse. I hope he’s not just using his religion as an excuse to have an unequal sexual relationship.
As for your question about temple marriage, you have to distinguish between being married and being sealed. Your husband is divorced; he is no longer married. But he is still “sealed” to his ex-wife. But that is pretty irrelevant for you, a non-believer. The important thing to note is that he doesn’t need to cancel this sealing if he wants to marry you or even if he wants to be married and sealed to a Mormon woman.