Muslim Guy: Beat ya 
. But now I must go do what I get paid for, so good night 
.
- Tamerlane
Muslim Guy: Just sticking my head back in for just a second - I had heard something in the news a few years ago about the Agha Khan winning some court case that acknowledged his leadership over an Indian Ismaili community that disputed his leadership. Was that the Bombay group? Just curious.
- Tamerlane
Oh and my mistake in making the false statement that all modern Ismailis are Nizari. Most are apparently, but luckily Muslim Guy is a little more on top of things. I really do have to remember to fact check a little more rigorously and stop going by memory .
- Tamerlane
Muslim Guy - thanks for the thread and for your time. Please don’t re-lurk, I’m learning a lot, here.
And take no notice of the trolls.
S. Norman
Muslim Guy, thanks- this is an interesting thread, and I’m enjoying it.
Muslim Guy:
Just another Doper saying thanks for starting this thread. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And, if at all possible, please don’t go back to lurking. We always need voices like yours.
Persephone
to you and all those of your faith for safety from misguided attacks. Thank you for this interesting and informative thread, and welcome to the SDMB.
Indeed, welcome, Muslim Guy, and thanks for answering my question. As I suspected, true followers of Allah would never perpetrate such a heinous attack on innocents.
Sir Rhosis
One more thing–I think I’m going to print this thread and carry it with me. I’ve been hearing a lot of Anti-Muslim/Arab/people-that-look-and-think-differently sentiment where I’m at (in Michigan, which has the largest population of Arabs outside of the Middle East), and I’m getting real tired of it.
Next time I hear some wanker spouting bad information, I’ll pull this thread out of my pocket and use it as a reference.
Actually, my question, whether Allah hires hitmen to rub out authors that insult him, wasn’t a troll. I’ll ask it a different way:
Does the Koran command Muslims to kill people that insult Islam? Because Islamic scholars everywhere seem to suggest that the answer is, “Yes”. They’ve issued religious orders to kill Salman Rushdie and have offered a reward, both here and in the next life, for his assassination. His offense is said to be insulting Islam. No legitimate Islamic leader has denounced the order.
Now, as a more or less recent convert to Islam, do you feel that you have more on the ball than the scholars that have devoted their entire lives to study?
If we look at ANY Islamic government ANYWHERE, those that get guidance from “holy” men, we see the worst regimes on the planet: Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. There is not a single democracy in the Moslem world, and represssion of women is the literal rule, whatever you may feel is the ideal.
So, Muslim Guy, are all the mullahs in Tehran wrong? Are the Islamic scholars in Saudi Arabia all fucked up? Is the Taliban merely misguided? Did the men who have devoted their lives to study and devotion to Allah get it wrong? If so, then you need to get 'em back on the right track, friend, and quit answering OUR limp questions on our fringe little message board. Because these holy fascists aren’t adhering to the principles you’re laying out, and I think they could use your insight.
No, sir. Either they’ve got it all wrong, and YOU, the recent convert, have it right. OR…
they know their own religious doctrine through-and-through, and have decided it isn’t compatible with the Western world.
I’m still asking: does Allah hire hitmen to rub out authors that insult Him?
I’ll come right out and say this- Muslim Guy took the tough road and jumped right in, and is IMHO doing an amazing job. Let none of us challenge his chops again. I’d say that based on his depth of cite and personal education, this guy pretty much ought to have 1500 posts added to his count, to remove any shred of doubt from those Dopers who actually take thread count to mean something.
I have nothing but respect for what you are doing here in this thread. Thank you for making the effort and laying yourself out there to do this.
AFAIAC, you’re not a newbie. You’re an amazing asset to this community, and I’m glad you went from lurker to poster.
Shalom,
Cartooniverse
If it walks like one and quacks like one…
Iran != “everywhere”
Fred Phelps have devoted his life to studying the bible, and I can tell from a continent away that he’s not a Christian. And I’m not even one myself.
You might actually have a point, here. Who would’ve thought it ?
Define “the Moslem world”, please. There are democracies out there where a majority of the inhabitants are moslems. Malaysia, say.
A moslem in USA is about as affiliated with the Taliban as an American protestant is with the Pope. As has been carefully pointed out here and elsewhere.
And your question is as out of line as it was the first time.
S. Norman
Well, Norm, I wasn’t trolling, Hoss. And I notice it isn’t getting answered by you, just jumped on by you. I want to know the answer. Are Muslims commanded to kill those that insult Islam? So, either answer for the Muslim Guy, or stay out of it.
And it wasn’t just Iran I was talking about, so Iran doesn’t equal “everywhere”. But it’s true that not a single legitimate Islamic leader ANYWHERE has denounced the order.
Muslim Guy seems to be out of line with most of his faith, particularly with regard to treatment of women. Very admirable for him, I think, but let’s see how far he gets with that thinking in the seat of his religion, Saudi Arabia. Or anywhere else that is governed by an Islamic regime.
My point was, his credentials are not nearly as legit as any Islamic leader’s, and anytime religious people are in charge of entire countries, governing them (as they insist they are) according to religious principles, we see absolutely HORRIBLE regimes.
Another suck up post. I’ve been pretty depressed over the past couple of days about this message board. I feel better now. Thank you to Muslim Guy and lots of others in this thread.
I had a strong feeling that the quote I found was not in a proper context, but just wanted to confirm it with someone knowledgeable in this area.
Thanks.
I just want to add my thanks to Muslim Guy for poking his head above the parapet and adding his voice to the fight against ignorance.
I don’t have any specific questions right now, those I did have are answered patiently and intelligently in previous posts.
This is a timely and necessary thread.
Muslim Guy - thank you for doing more than your part to fight ignorance.
Agree. Muslim Guy had contributed far more to this board with 25 posts than I have with my 650ish typo-laden messages, or some others with four digit post counts.
Hi Muslim Guy,
I just wanted to say along with the others that I REALLY appreciate this thread and that I hope that you will not re-lurk. We need you and many more folks who practice Islam as well as other religions among us. I appreciate your being a voice of reason in such a crazy time. I am learning so much.
Okay, I don’t know much about foreign politics, Islam, or Osama bin Laden, but last night I was watching the Jim Lehrer News Hour, and Lehrer was interviewing a panel of folks who were talking about bin Laden. One man, a representative for Newsweek–I think that was the name of the periodical–I can’t remember this man’s name, but he appeared to be an Arab, said that bin Laden hates America for what it is. He said that bin Laden sees women not wearing veils and men watching TV, and he attributes these so-called evils to America, and in essence he wants to stamp out America and its notions of democracy, which have crippled the practice of Islam so that he can return to the way Islam was practiced in Medieval times. They ran out of time so they could not discuss this further. Is this Arab journalist’s interpretation of bin Laden and his view of America as this evil temptation to Muslims true? Is this a general attitude that Muslims have against America. I find this illogical for anyone to believe, but how has America hindered the practice of Islam?
Personally, I find blaming America for tempting Muslims to adopt Western dress and watch TV to be absolutely ridiculous. If cultural dictates for women veiling themselves and men not watching TV are so integral a part of practicing Islam, then they should appeal to those cultures whether or not other countries engage in Western dress or watch TV, and if folks in those cultures don’t want to wear veils or whatever, then that is something for those cultures to address directly, not to blame America or any other Western culture for. There are plenty of other countries who have TV and produce TV shows and who wear the same fashions that Americans do. In fact there are other countries that INFLUENCE American fashions. And there are plenty of other countries that practice democracy and that are capitalistic. Capitalism I imagine goes on in plenty of countries where Islam is practiced. I find that Arab journalist’s assessment of bin Laden’s attitude toward America to be way too simplistic. There must be other factors motivating bin Laden.
And another thing, what gives bin Laden or anyone else for that matter the right to dictate how Islam should be practiced and to enforce that definition onto the world? I guess the easy answer would be that bin Laden’s a fanatic, perhaps even a lunatic, but I’m just thinking that there’s something deeper here that we’re completely missing.
I’m sorry if I’ve rambled too much here.
Muslim Guy, thank you for having the fortitude to use this forum as a means to understanding right now. I greatly admire that.
My glimpses of Islamic culture are limited to some study of Sufism and Sufi medicine. But that pretty much holds the heart and beauty of Islamic thought. I’ve found it to contain the same basic truths as Christianity and Buddhism at a ground level.
The questions in my mind these lately sad days are:
How exactly are bin Laden’s beliefs corrupting the Qur’an to justify his means?
And, concurrently, how could his followers adopt that mindset to be able to carry out the atrocious acts of Sept 11?
Fundamentalist Christians have a lot of ill-will toward others in this country, but I can’t imagine the true believers doing something like this. What can possess one to have such a narrow view to cause such destruction??? Is it a particular view of the afterlife in Islamic tradition that can be twisted to allow for that?
I realize that these are complex questions. Though immensely sad, angered, and shaken over the WTC atrocity, I’d prefer to try to understand where the problem lies in the mindset of those who committed themselves to this act, and then be able to say where they’ve gone wrong. If you can help to illuminate this, Muslim Guy, I’d appreciate it.
Another question, too: Is there any significance to the date of the attack in context of Islamic thought?