Unfortunately the religious teachings left behind by some of histories greatest personages often turn out to be a sort of rohrschach test, with the follower or sometimes culture seeing what they choose to see, via their own personal interpretation. Whatever the Word was meant to convey gets corrupted in the delivery or interpretation, and thus you see religions which one person points to as loving come across to the rest of the world as hatred. Hitler corrupted the official religions of Germany this way during his war, and historically this occurs quite often. In the United States the Aryan Races and Klan believe that the bible supports their contentions, but I do not see this. Likewise there certainly seem to be passages in the Qur’an when taken in a singular context can be seen as preaching a message of intolerance or hatred. If you can find them then so can others who for various reasons would use their clout to send a message of hate to the desperate and impressionable youth of impoverished nations.
I am, as I have stated before, not a religious person, but I do believe that the message of the Torah, the Gospels and the Qur’an are all messages of love, if not always inclusion. Unfortunately this message often seems to be lost in the translation or in the fear which these groups have of one another, rational or otherwise.
schplebordnik, Shibboleth: I got a little curious about the beard issue a few years ago and did some poking around. My understanding is that there is, predictably, some dispute over the issue.
There is nothing mentioned in the Koran, but there is mention in the hadith, the collected sayings of Muhammed ( collected after his death ), that act as a sort of supplementary text of how a good Muslim should live his life. From there it has entered into the corpus of most, if not all, of the various schools of jurisprudence that the maintainence of a beard is desirable.
There appears to be several schools of thought, ranging from the Taliban who consider it haram ( forbidden ) to trim their beards at all, to those who say it is frowned upon as an effeminancy but is not forbidden, to some modern scholars who say it was just Muhammed’s personal preference and has no force of religious sanction.
Note the above sites obviously have their own biases on the issue.
The questions about pubic and underarm hair apparently derive from the Muslim dictums on personal hygiene and cleanliness and are considered ( along with trimming the mustache, which hearkens back to the beard argument ) part of the fitra ( “Five Acts” ), that includes circumcision. Note that these are specifically directed at men and to the best of my knowledge their is no universal directive to circumcise women. Here’s another page that mentions this in passing and briefly goes into a variety of related topics:
Shayna: To my understanding the commentary about the Jews in the Koran represent two somewhat conflicting impulses. On the one hand Muhammed, after an initial period of attempted rapproachment in which he hoped the Jews would accept his message, became involved in a bitter struggle with Jewish tribes in Medina after 626 C.E. I strongly suspect much of the anti-Jewish invective in the Koran stems from this period. I don’t believe, for example, that the anti-Christian comments are as strong, because he had somewhat higher hopes, even after his failure with the Jews, to convert them. Specifically Muhammed accused the Jews, by questioning his role as prophet, of falsifying their scriptures to conceal the foretelling of his mission as the prophet of God. He further accused them of deviating from the true worship of God.
On the other hand he made it amply clear that Christianity and Judaism were expressions of earlier religions willed by God and he respected that kinship. Thus Christians and Jews ( and later Zoroastrians ) were explicitly protected from harm ( as long as they did not wage war on Muslims ) by the Koran as “People of the Book” - The term used was ahl al-dhimmah or roughly “protected peoples”. One interpretation of Muslim relations to non-Muslims can be found here:
Muslim Guy, and the rest of y’all, I have learned so much from this thread. I knew the basics, but this is really a great primer on the history of Islam.
But…
I’m trying to figure out what you all mean when you mention someone (like the 7th and 12th Caliphs) were “occulted by Allah.” Is this similar to the Christian concept of Assumption, as Mary is believed to have been assumed into heaven by God?
Hi, I’m back. Sorry I took a long break, I was facing burnout and needed to recuperate. Let me get caught up here.
I’m very skeptical that fluff such as this could drive anyone around the bend so drastically. I prefer my analysis more sober and hard-edged. I see his motivation as a drive to seize power. Feeling powerless drives mentally ill people to lash out and hurt. It isn’t about America, it’s about a power grab.
There are more Muslim political scientists these days who find that Islam is compatible with democracy than those who don’t. And among the latter are mostly those who are out to grab power for themselves.
What’s deeper is a general widespread feeling of rage born of powerlessness among the Muslim peoples, which he’s drawing on and exploiting to give him the Dark Side of the Force. There are peaceful ways to resolve this very large and complex issue. Nothing gives him the “right” to seize power in this way. (Other than a Machiavellian attitude.)
Just wanted to add my thanks to the Muslim Guy – and to all the folks who asked thoughtful, intelligent and respectful questions.
At a time when so many of us Americans are soul-sick and outraged at the attacks, it gives me hope that reason, tolerance, respect for diversity and a true desire to understand prevails here.
Kinda wish the world was more the the SDMB sometimes.
Do you have Hakim G. M. Chishti’s books The Sufi Book of Healing and The Traditional Healer’s Handbook? I love those. He’s an Anglo American who converted to Islam and studied the medieval medicine of Avicenna in Afghanistan, where’s it’s still practiced.
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How exactly are bin Laden’s beliefs corrupting the Qur’an to justify his means? And, concurrently, how could his followers adopt that mindset to be able to carry out the atrocious acts of Sept 11?**
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Do you want the short answer or a long answer?
Their so-called justifications for their crimes are done by taking certain episodes from early Islam’s warfare and blowing them out of proportion, while ignoring the context
and larger perspective of kindness, justice, beauty, and mercy brought by the Prophet of Mercy. There is not a qualified scholar among them who can make genuine
Islamic rulings because they have narrowed down the scope of their “Islam” to include only hatred and violence. Osama is not a scholar and has no business issuing “fatwas,” no more than I can. No one in history has ever before produced such an insanely distorted, cruel agenda and attached the good name of Islam to it. They are liars and frauds. True Islam is a holistic worldview. The real scholars such as the ones at al-Azhar (the most prestigious institution in the Muslim world) have consistently repudiated this fake Islam. But when was the last time the American media reported anything that came out of al-Azhar? Nice guys don’t make the 7 o’clock news. The Brits are capable of more balanced reporting.
In the Islamic calendar, it was the 23rd day of the sixth month, Jumada al-Akhirah. No, that date has no particular significance (unless you’re a fan of Robert Anton Wilson and spot 23s all over the place). But for the Romans, Tuesday was the day of Mars, the god of war, and for the Hindus Tuesday is considered inauspicious. To say the least.
Just wanted to add my thanks to the Muslim Guy – and to all the folks who asked thoughtful, intelligent and respectful questions.
At a time when so many of us Americans are soul-sick and outraged at the attacks, it gives me hope that reason, tolerance, respect for diversity and a true desire to understand prevails here.
Kinda wish the world was more the the SDMB sometimes.
{{{Muslim Guy}}} I hope you don’t mind virtual hugs. I know how taxing trying to keep up with a thread can be, and I say more power to you, dear. I hope that you got a good rest. Hang in there and take as many breaks as you need.
I just wanted to say thank you for your response. It was enlightening, and I agree. In the few days since I posted my questions, I’ve been learning about ObL, and I think he and those affiliated with him are just power hungry. Perhaps I’m wrong on this, but I just have to question a religious regime and anyone allied with it that operates on fear and oppression. He and his Taliban friends don’t care about Islam’s predicts to love and live in peace. They’re just toying with us, trying to start a religious war so that while folks are scrabbling around killing each other, they can get more power and money. Just despicable.
If a Muslim is engaged in life-or-death work, then saving life takes precedence (as in Jewish law), and the prayer can be made up at the earliest opportunity. If it’s just a job, though, one is expected to set work aside and pray. It only takes 4 or 5 minutes anyway. People regularly take coffee breaks longer than that during the work day. What’s more, the allotted time windows for prayer can stretch for up to several hours, depending on the time of day and season of the year — so we can just about always find a chance to fit the prayer into the workday. One stratagem I use at work is to begin the noon prayer 5 minutes before its time window expires, then straightaway do the afternoon prayer as its time begins, so I get both in one go.
No, I actually don’t feel threatened. The area where I live has a high level of educated Americans, and it hasn’t gotten ugly here except for some rude graffitti in the mosque. The local Christians came around and offered support and helped scrub. As for fanatics, I’m not scared of them. I fight back with the only weapon I need: the truth.
My general outlook on life is that the hour of my death is maktûb: written. Only Allah knows when that will be. Before that time, nothing anyone in the world can do will advance that hour; when it comes nothing can delay it. This frees my mind from worrying about it; I live with inner peace and am prepared to face death with equanimity whenever it comes.
Oh - that reminds me of another question: what’s the point of the death penalty in Islam, if that’s the belief? If you behead someone, they were going to die anyway.
bin Laden has mentioned that the hour of death is predestined too, as an explanation of why it doesn’t bother terrorists (terrorist is my word, obviously - can’t remember his word) to execute suicide missions.
On the other hand, the people around him are sworn to loyalty to bin Laden <i>on pain of death</i>.
I don’t expect you to be able to explain bin Laden, but maybe you can, but what about capital punishment in the Islamic world?
Like everybody, *Muslim Guy, I appreciate your taking the time to answer our questions. But, since I am a contrary cuss, I want to pick on this statement:
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*Originally posted by Muslim Guy *
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Now I have not read the Qur’an, so what you say about it authorizing only defensive military action may very well be true so far as I know. But it was my understanding that Islam inspired offensive military action as well, since the early caliphs conquered all of North Africa, half of Spain, all of Persia, etc. I assumed their actions were in line with Islamic teaching. Do modern Muslims regard the early caliphs’ conquests as something illegitimate, something that should not have been done?
Muslim Guy - I’d be very curious to hear someone educated on the subject play devils advocate on why exactly fundies claim they have higher moral ground? You’ve already shown many examples in the Koran and extrapolated on how they are breaking many many Islamic rules, but I haven’t heard an educated (but yes, many idiotic uneducated) reason why they think they are allowed?
I’ve been wondering what the titles “mullah” and “imam” refer to exactly. Does a mullah hold an office in a mosque? Is there any sort of ordination involved? Or do the terms simply refer to learned men? Thanks.
Hey, hey, there. Wahid was impeached, in accordance with the strictures of the Indonesian constitution. Nothing about Megawati’s succession was undemocratic.
In point of fact, Wahid wasn’t “elected” president, either. Under the Indonesian system of government, which is an amalgamation of parliamentarian and presidential systems, the president is elected by the, arggh, damn, I forget the name, but an assembly that consists of the Parliament and regional representatives, that constitutes the supreme authority in Indonesia. Wahid beat Megawati (who’s party is the largest both in Parliament and whateverthedamnnameisoftheotherassembly.)
Anywho, back to the thread. Greetin’s, Muslim Guy. It has been widely reported that the Quran prohibits the killing of “innocents” and even demands their protection. My question is: how are “innocents” defined? Is it all non-combatants, or are those who support combatants (which could be expanded to include the entire population of an enemy country) not considered innocent?
Oh, and a personal question - I read your “resume”, and your background sounds remarkably like a guy I went to school with. The odds are, of course, that you aren’t him, but could you send me an email so we can figure it out? Thanks,
The only Islamic country the Freedom House classifies as “free” is the West African nation of Mali. Indonesia is getting there but they regard the military as still being too powerful.
Getting back to the topic, I’d like to revive a few previous questions that got lost in the shuffle. What is the Quranic attitude on homosexuality? And what is the afterlife like?
Hello Schadenfreude and everyone else… firstly, let me say As-salaam-u-alaikum to you all and to Muslim Guy for the good work he has been doing. Islam is not a very understood religion in the west because they are constantly being shown Islam from the wrong perspectives, from the way contrary to its true essence but I’m happy to see some positive signs here that the correct message is going through.
In reading all the posts, not only did I give myself a headache from too much computing but I also found that since Muslim Guy is being swamped by so many questions, I might try and help him a little bit by answering some of the questions.
Though I dont have the historical knowledge that he obviously does and Tamerlane also, I have been following Islam for all of my life and “Trying” to be a good muslim.
Well let me just quickly reply to the quote above about “Mullas” and “Imams”… forgive me if I dont use the right words but you will know what I mean anyway, Islam does not have any Priests etc such as for example the Church and other religions. Imams are the gentlemen you might have seen who lead prayers in mosques and any gatherings where more than 1 muslim is praying. Generally it doesnt matter who leads the prayers as long as they have knowledge about Islam and the Qur’an. Even a young person, teenager, can and has led a prayer.
If someone is very knowledgeable about Islam then that is great, Thank God, however there is no hierarchy or clergy etc.
Please note: While writing this I am fearful of God (Allah) for any mistakes I do in my writing and he knows best what is in my heart and that my intentions are good.
Strictly speaking, it’s considered good manners to follow every mention of a Prophet (any Prophet, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus…) with the formula Salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa-sallam ‘May Allah bless him and grant him peace’. In Arabic printing, they have a special dingbat with those words condensed into a little oval that makes it easy to slip into the text. In English, it would tend to interrupt the flow of thought so much for people not used to it that it’s just easier to omit it.
Good question. On the one hand, the Prophet’s sunnah (example) is the second source of legislation along with the Qur’an. On the other hand—and this is very important—you can’t just pick out one isolated hadith and derive a rule from it. You have to take all kinds of contextual things into consideration. Believe me, I’ve seen a lot of hadith abuse from amateur muftis who read one hadith and think they know what they’re talking about but they don’t know what they’re talking about. You have to study for years to be qualified to derive legislation from the sources.
This caution is at the crux of the current problem. Osama is no scholar. He has no business making fatwas, no more than I can. The real scholars, like the ones at al-Azhar, have always repudiated his twisted sort of misinterpretation.
Only if he had been miseducated in a school that specialized in twisted misinterpretation, in the absence of genuine teaching (unfortunately there are such schools flourishing nowadays thanks to the failure of Muslim governments to provide for their peoples’ basic needs such as education). Or if he’d been brainwashed by a cult a la Jim Jones.
