That’s interesting–I’ve usually seen the idea expressed that so long as it’s “not a choice,” it’s not psychological at all, disease or otherwise…
As a married male with a mildly bi-curious wife, who will likely never test the waters (which is probably for the best, since we have a happy marriage and 2 kids), can you discuss in much more detail this sex, and what made it so great?
Bte, this is not a sarcastic male masturbation fantasy - I am honestly interested, and would consider sharing this thread with Phungal.
Seconded.
Right. There has been a huge push in the gay community to emphasize the lack of choice involved… but I’m not convinced it’s always such a black and white issue. I am absolutely convinced some people are born gay, but I am also absolutely convinced that some people have life experiences that change their perceptions about what they find attractive in another human being–and, as someone else has pointed out, I have noticed the majority of gay males I run across perceive they have been gay from birth, while females tend to encompass a much broader spectrum of sexuality. I am biologically hard-wired to love men, but at the same time I have no psychological taboos about being in a relationship with another woman. There are many different ways to look at the issue of sexuality, and it doesn’t all have to be genetic.
And that makes sense to me, based on what I know about science. Your environment actually can affect the expression of your genes–and the expression of your grandkids’ genes. I’m no expert in biology, but I have read a little about epigenetics and the ways they have found that by altering the epigenome they can affect the way your genes express themselves. They are working on cancer from this angle, for they’ve found by altering the epigenome they can close down certain cancerous genetic mutations. By altering the epigenome of diabetes-prone rats, they made the offspring of those rats diabetes-free. This is still in an experimental phase, obviously, but this work does have broad implications regarding the way we view human behavior. It appears it’s not strictly “genetics” or strictly “environment” --but the way these continually interact throughout a person’s lifetime.
From a purely moral perspective, I must attack the notion that gayness is wrong even if someone does choose it. It’s ludicrous that people would attach a moral value to something that really only impacts the two (or more) people who are having the sex. I don’t care whether homosexuality is something chosen or something genetic or something in between–to treat members of its community as second-class citizens based on something so arbitrary is reprehensible.
And the ads are trumpeting “The Second Coming.” HAH! So appropriate! So random!
In a word, yes.
Basically it is seen as a strike to one’s manhood to admit sexual feelings for other men, whereas the same is not true for women: on the contrary, it’s found sexy by men. Women, on the other hand, usually do not find the prospect of watching men make out with each other a turn-on. More disapproving stares = less acceptable = bigger deal to admit one’s feelings. Most guys who are a little bicurious won’t do anything about it because they think it will make them less desirable to women, and lock them into gayness. That’s big and scary when you’re not even sure you like guys to begin with. Women have much more freedom to explore their curiousity because often their boyfriends find it hot, so it doesn’t burn any bridges. It’s a really shitty double standard, and as a bisexual female (who would probably be such with any set of genitals), let me just say I am glad I am not a man.
I’ll try to translate. Gonzomax is referring to some people’s notion that being gay is a choice. He’s also equating those people with christians.
You already answered him, actually.
You don’t have kids from your marriage and I recently tagged with you in the thread about Christian agencies and same sex couples in the UK. Does your wife have kids? Are you considering adoption? Please feel free to tell me to go to hell if that’s too personal.
No that’s fine. We don’t have children and are currently debating whether to or not. I would be happy to adopt - my brother and sister are adopted so it feels like a very normal way to create a family for me. My partner would really prefer to have her own if that’s possible - call it motherly instinct in the desire to breed. The logistics of this are the things we’re debating. Do we ask a friend to be a donor and invite a third person into our family unit? Do we have an anonymous donor and deny the child a father? These are questions I’d never imagined having to address in my life and the biggest sadness in my relationship is that we can’t have a child together as heterosexual couple do.
I don’t think there’s an easy answer here. Perhaps a subject for a debate another time.
Well, as much detail as I can muster while I sit at my desk at work!
The big surprise for me was skin. It may seem a minor detail, but the soft smooth skin of a woman was an intense sensual experience I hadn’t expected. I’m not sure how you address that!
A mouth that is soft, gentle, bristle free and fits my own was another.
The next point is an obvious one. Sex between two women is, for most heterosexual couples, the foreplay before the main event, but it’s actually the part I (and many women) get most pleasure from. The touching, rubbing and oral ‘attention’ becomes a long, adventurous event rather than something skimmed over in favour of full intercourse. There’s a lot more body exploration, testing out new erogenous zones.
Finally, the standard line trotted out is that ‘women know what women want’. I don’t think this is as straightforward as it sounds as we’re all different, but we’re certainly patient in asking and discovering what the other one wants, with a softness of touch that is more erotic than a rough rummage, if you know what I mean.
That’s it, I’m blushing.
That makes a lot of sense to me. I think women are also more comfortably tactile with each other, so crossing the line is perhaps a shorter bridge to hop, as it were.
Having been in his place (except I discovered my ex-wife’s infidelity immediately after the marriage) I would say that the only redeeming feature from my point of view was that it wasn’t with another guy.
I still believe that 5+ years on - As **kalhoun **says, it’s not so much a matter of not being able to compete as the realisation that you may have held someone’s heart, but you were never going to be the sexual partner of choice. Still not easy to deal with, but it is some small recompense that you, as an individual, are not a sexual inadequate but just playing a different game - if that makes sense!?
I certainly hopes he sees it that way, I would hate to think he’d felt hoodwinked throughout our relationship, because that certainly wasn’t the case. I have a close female friend whose husband has come out and she’s been utterly traumatised by it. She feels the last ten years has been a lie, which is awful and certainly not true, I think, from her husband’s point of you. I’d probably feel the same in her situation and the pain I might have caused to my husband is a huge guilt I carry (despite the fact that we were on the road to breaking up before I got together with a women).
I understand that - it’s probably all to do with the way in which it happens. In my case I believe the relationship (between us) was real, but the marriage was a sham. In fact, it was the fact that we had just got married that caused me the most pain and humiliation, as it made the shock for friends and family all the greater (as well as being a greater shock to me).
Also, honesty really counts in such situations, and in my case I was left to discover what was going on for myself - in the light of her complete change of character and attitude following the honeymoon…!
From what you’ve said, and the fact that you are both evidently still in contact, it doesn’t appear that you should feel too guilty. Certainly it would be worse to continue a ‘pretense’ of a marriage. For my part, I hope that my ex doesn’t feel too bad now about what happened, but I’ll probably never know…
**SanVito **, I don’t mean to hijack your thread, I just thought an additional data point might be interesting to people.
My answers to some of these question…
She thought of herself as straight for many years, then bi, now gay. It wouldn’t matter to me either way, but it’s kind of nice that she understands where I’ve been.
My case is a bit unusual here–I’m bi and poly; I didn’t so much leave him for a woman, as leave him becuase he was seriously screwed up. The timing just happened to be right around my first open/honest relationship with another poly woman who is now my partner. Anyway, he hates me and blamed my “lesbianness”.
MY partner and her husband spilt up about a year later because she just wasn’t into guys anymore. this was a very gradual thing. He’s one of our best friends and we still share a house now (3 years later).
I’ve known I was bi for many years–since before my marriage. My partner experienced more of an “actual change”, though not sudden.
I’d consider either, but lean pretty heavily toward women.
I like sex with guys A LOT, but my first experience with a woman was just mindblowing. The softness, smoothness, curves. I found that visual stimulation is much stronger for me with women.
Pro-gay, but totally uninvolved/nonactivist.
Also…
Yes, the gay community like to yell loudly that it’s not a choice, as this gives them a bit more validity with the wingnuts. And yes, my bisexuality is not a choice. But I, and other bi people, DO have a chance to “choose” and I’m not ashamed to say that I choose this life with my female partner.
What a coincidence… I was straight married too and turned lesbian… (I just took the long way around)
What a big beautiful world of human diversity we live in!
Eh, that’s cheating, Johanna. Was oriented towards female, is oriented towards female is hardly “turning”. 
I sincerely hope that you don’t take this the wrong way, but is it possible that the men you’ve had sex with in the past were just lousy lovers? A good lover thinks of penetration as being sort of the “icing on the cake”: foreplay is the main event and penetration is the culmination.
Wrong. There’s more to it than that. Sexuality is the result of two things taken together: who you are, combined with who you’re attracted to.