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41

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
Here’s one that numerous folks have tried to explain to me but it just hasn’t clicked. Why is music for different instruments written in different keys? Why, if every instrument in a concert band played the note denoted by the lowest line on the treble clef, would they not all be playing E?
[/QUOTE]

Accident of history. Sometimes, when things get standardised, they don’t standardise in an obviously-logical way.

However, there was never a pressing need for standarising on non-transposing systems, because once you’re familiar with what we have, it becomes second nature. And there are other less obvious factors which do have some logic within what is used today - bass clarinets have already been mentioned, where the transposition of a ninth makes it easier for a player to switch between parts. Likewise Eb and A clarinets, and the entire saxophone family also uses transposition so that all parts are written using the same treble-clef range.

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[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
Here’s one that numerous folks have tried to explain to me but it just hasn’t clicked. Why is music for different instruments written in different keys? Why, if every instrument in a concert band played the note denoted by the lowest line on the treble clef, would they not all be playing E?
[/QUOTE]

Different instruments play in different keys. Trumpets are usually Bflat, for instance. What this means is that their natural scale (written CDEFGABC) is actually sounded as (Bflat, C, D, Eflat, F,G,A). If the music for piano and trumpet both had Eflat as the first note, the piano would be playing Eflat and the trumpet would be playing Dflat (Csharp).

43

Gaah!
I hate it when I am so dense about something that folks’ simplistic explanations cannot dent it.
A note has a certain empirical value, doesn’t it? Isn’t concert A 440 cycles or somesuch? And that is true whether it is played on a piano, trumpet, or clarinet.
So why isn’t all music written such that the space between the 2d and 3d lines on the treble clef is an A - no matter what instrument you are playing?
Doesn’t it make it tougher for people to switch between instruments?
My daughter plays bassoon, and in her jazz orchestra she was assigned (I believe) some bari sax parts. And she’ll rattle off something like “I just transpose everything up 2 steps and add 3 flats - no big deal.” Well, sure, she CAN do it. But wouldn’t it be a heck of a lot easier if she could just read the darn notes?
I played piano when young, and in later years played bass, mando, and harmonica. I’ve got no idea what keys my instruments are in, but I can read piano music and play it on my mando or harp.

44

What the hell is a [sup]6[/sup][sub]9[/sub]?

I know, it’s when you play the barre and drop the D and the G back three positions, and the B back two positions, but what does that mean? How would someone know wjhen to put that in? What would it look like on a piano?

45

Is there somewhere I can hear examples of music (preferably classical) played in just temperament and equal temperament?

-FrL-

46

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
A note has a certain empirical value, doesn’t it? Isn’t concert A 440 cycles or somesuch?
[/quote]

Yes. The crucial word is ‘concert A’.

Pianos and bassoons are both described as playing in concert pitch. This means that an A on that instrument produces A440. Trumpets and clarinets do not play at concert pitch. Therefore, an A on those instruments does not produce A440, and the subsequent transposition is necessary to fit the ensemble together.

No. The music for a transposing instrument is written in a different key, to remove the need for the trumpets to think “ahh, that’s a concert C, so I need to play a trumpet D to fit”. It does cause problems if you try and switch parts around - you can’t hand the oboe part to the clarinets without causing difficulties.

The person who has to do the most thinking about all of this is the conductor. And transposing parts at sight is just one part of their specific skills.

That would mean every sax player in the world having to relearn which notes correspond to which keys. And transcribing every piece to fit. And somehow stop the old music from remaining in circulation. Good luck :stuck_out_tongue:

47

[QUOTE=GorillaMan]
Fish - I’m not sure the ‘natural-sharp’ is needed in the example at the bottom of your page. I don’t see anything wrong with just writing an A sharp. I’d expect to see the natural-sharp as a cancellation of a double-sharp.
[/QUOTE]

You’re right in that it probably isn’t necessary. I think it does help a beginner to understand what’s going on with key signatures and accidentals, though.

It could also be explained with interval names, I suppose, except I haven’t got there yet.

48

[QUOTE=GorillaMan]

Pianos and bassoons are both described as playing in concert pitch. This means that an A on that instrument produces A440. Trumpets and clarinets do not play at concert pitch. Therefore, an A on those instruments does not produce A440, and the subsequent transposition is necessary to fit the ensemble together.

[/QUOTE]

Would you please explain this bit a little more. In addition to piano my kids play bassoon, clarinet, alto sax, flute, picc, fife, and trumpet. And on each of them, I could sit down at the piano, plunk an A, and they could play something pretty darn close to it on their instrument - making the necessary adjustments to get in tune. It sure sounds like the same note to me. I may have to sit down with one of the tuners lying around the house tonight…

So, are you saying that if I looked at all of the instruments’ sheet music for a work entitled “symphony in E Minor”, not all of the pieces would actually be written in E minor? Only the ones for the instruments that play at concert pitch? And the others would all be written in some different pitch which combined with the natural scale for that instrument would come out like E Minor?

49

[QUOTE=GorillaMan]

That would mean every sax player in the world having to relearn which notes correspond to which keys. And transcribing every piece to fit. And somehow stop the old music from remaining in circulation. Good luck :stuck_out_tongue:
[/QUOTE]

Of course the big question is, “well, why, when they created the alto saxophone, did they choose to call concert A an F#?”

[QUOTE=saoirse]

What the hell is a 69?

I know, it’s when you play the barre and drop the D and the G back three positions, and the B back two positions, but what does that mean? How would someone know wjhen to put that in? What would it look like on a piano?

[/QUOTE]

Well, I’m not exactly visualising your guitar fingerings, but those numbers represent additions to the basic major triad, corresponding to the xth note in the scale based on the chord.

So, an A chord is built with the 1, 3, and 5 notes of an A scale (A B C# D E F# G# A). An A then is contains an A, C#, and E. An A6 has those notes as well as the sixth tone in the scale, an F#. An A69 also has the 9th tone in the scale, which is a B (for these purposes, you continue to count up the scale into the next octave . . . the 8th tone is an A, 9th is a B, 10th is a C#, etc etc).
On a piano, in a basic root position voicing, it would look like:

A, C#, E, F#, B.

But, that’s a lot of notes cluttered together. A more open sound might be an A and E together in one octave, and then in the next octave a C#, F#, and B.

On the piano (and the guitar as well) there are many ways to ‘voice’ different chords (the order in which you put the chord tones, how spread out they are, and how often different notes are duplicated or omitted).

As for when you put it in, well, when it makes the sound you want, of course! :wink:

50

I was under the impression that alto and tenor clefs both centered on C4, though normally tenor clef is usually placed a third higher on the staff; since they have exactly the same shape, that would make them pretty much the same clef.

51

I was under the impression that alto and tenor clefs both centered on C4, though normally tenor clef is usually placed a third higher on the staff; since they have exactly the same shape, that would make them pretty much the same clef.

The main reason I didn’t say anything about alto/tenor clefs, despite them being apparently fairly common for instruments, is that I sing, and most choral music has treble clefs for sopranos and altos, bass clef for basses, and either bass clef (if tenors and basses are on the same staff) or treble shifted an octave down for tenors. So yeah, bit of a bias there.

52

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]

So, are you saying that if I looked at all of the instruments’ sheet music for a work entitled “symphony in E Minor”, not all of the pieces would actually be written in E minor? Only the ones for the instruments that play at concert pitch? And the others would all be written in some different pitch which combined with the natural scale for that instrument would come out like E Minor?
[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

I play saxophones, which are Eb instruments (Alto and Baritone sax) or Bb (Tenor).

Sheet music for a symphony in E Minor would be written in C# minor for the alto and bari saxes, and in D minor for the tenor.

53

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
C# minor for the alto and bari saxes.
[/QUOTE]

As a former bari player, may I just say “GAAAAHHH!” C# (major OR minor) is a bear…

54

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
Would you please explain this bit a little more. In addition to piano my kids play bassoon, clarinet, alto sax, flute, picc, fife, and trumpet. And on each of them, I could sit down at the piano, plunk an A, and they could play something pretty darn close to it on their instrument - making the necessary adjustments to get in tune. It sure sounds like the same note to me. I may have to sit down with one of the tuners lying around the house tonight…
[/quote]

It will have been a concert A. But the trumpeter and clarinetist will not have been playing the note called A on those instruments.

Exactly

They’re simply written in a different key, with all the notes higher or lower as necessary. Handily, on the shelf to my left is a score of the New World Symphony, in E minor :slight_smile: Strings, oboes, flutes, bassoon, trombones, all are in E minor at the start. The ‘clarinet in A’ is written in G minor.

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
Of course the big question is, “well, why, when they created the alto saxophone, did they choose to call concert A an F#?”
[/quote]

Because the saxophone was modelled on the clarinet :smiley:

The serious answer is the one I gave above - it’s an accident of history. Nobody would set out to create the system we have from scratch. But for musicians, it’s not actually a big problem.

[QUOTE=Captain Carrot]
I was under the impression that alto and tenor clefs both centered on C4, though normally tenor clef is usually placed a third higher on the staff; since they have exactly the same shape, that would make them pretty much the same clef.
[/QUOTE]

C4 means it’s a clef indicating that the fourth line up is C (tenor clef). C3 means it indicates the third line up is C (alto clef). Go back a few centuries, and C1/2/5 are all in frequent use.

55

[QUOTE=Pochacco]
The modern modes didn’t originate with the Greeks. The names that the ancient Greeks gave to different styles of music were applied arbitrarily to the modes that were developed in the middle ages in Europe but there’s actually no stylistic connection between the two.

Check the Wikipedia article on mode.
[/QUOTE]

:smack: I went a little too far back in music history. Where I wrote Greek, substitute “the 9th century church” to understand what I really meant to say.

scottandrsn - do you have a cite on that frequency threshold of human hearing? Does that apply to notes played simultaneously? One my keyboard I can tune individual keys up and down a number of cents, and I can hear the beats in a fifth if I detune it by two cents (my references say a fifth is off by -1.955). I was under the impression that piano tuners (in part) use these beats to tune fourths and fifths properly to ET. As far as I understand it, if you play an A5 and an E5 on the piano, you will hear that beat every four seconds. In higher octaves, it will be more obvious.

56

Thanks, Fish and Inner Stickler - amazingly, I think I understand.

Also amazingly, I understand the key/karaoke thing, also from playing in a band - we did a lot of Beatles covers, and I’d sing some of them; I could do Lennon’s stuff fine, but McCartney was out of my range (I think that’s the correct term). So the guitar player would change the key for me so I could sing Paul’s songs without straining.

As far as the modes and stuff, though, I’ll leave it to you music pros.

57

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
Exactly.

I play saxophones, which are Eb instruments (Alto and Baritone sax) or Bb (Tenor).

Sheet music for a symphony in E Minor would be written in C# minor for the alto and bari saxes, and in D minor for the tenor.
[/QUOTE]

F# minor, you mean (unless I’ve completely lost it).

58

Growing up, I remember seeing ads that claimed they could help a musician develop perfect pitch. I can usually hear a chord progression and know what the intervals between those chords are but I can’t tell you “that’s an A” and “that’s a C#” though. My questions: has anyone tried one of these programs? Is it possible to learn perfect pitch? Or are those ads essentially auditory snake oil?

59

Oh, and hooray for quadruple digits. And palendromes, now that you mention it.

60

Ohhh… I misunderstood you. I was using octave notation: alto and tenor clefs both center on middle C, which note is also known as C4. We were saying related things in the same way.