Musical key signature questions

Cafe Society
1

I’m merely an amateur musician, and don’t have the training or vocabulary to adequately discuss this. But:

Why is some music composed with seven flats or sharps, rather than simply dropped down (or up) to the next key? I’ve even encountered this in *a capella *music, so it can’t have anything to do with instrumental idiosynchracies.

Also, although our traditional Western major and minor scales include only one-step and half-step intervals, I know there are other scales that include greater than one-step intervals. So is it ever possible to have **both **flats and sharps in a given key signature?

And, slightly related, on a string instrument (e.g. violin), is, say, a G-sharp the same note as an A-flat?

2

On guitar it is.

As for why have something with 7 flats? Nyeh, I seem to recall at least some harps are tuned that way. That could lead to it. I’d certainly never write that way.

3

First of all, every key has its own subtly different tone color. Here we’re of course getting super-subjective, but hey, it’s music! That’s the name of the game. Write something in B major and it sounds just a bit darker, or purpler, or woodier, or, well, somethinger than if you wrote it in C major.

But I (a musician most of my life) wonder myself why an enharmonic* key couldn’t be used. Of course, there’s the great intricate web of Theory laid over the whole of the tonal landscape, and rules are rules…(Can you guess I’m not much for theory?) Then again, maybe it’s easier sometimes to just remember “play everything flat” (in Cb major) than to remember “play everything sharp but B and E” (in B major).

*enharmonic: note or key that sounds the same but is written differently, usually for reasons of theory.

In a piece written in a given key, sure - as accidentals. But in the signature itself? Not the done thing, old boy.

I suppose on a fretless instrument, you’d have people saying/teaching that they are/ought to be ever so subtly different in some situations…say maybe a G# should be a little closer to G than an Ab if you’re playing Whozis’ Third Whatsit in the correct style of the Umptyump Era…but in the overwhelming majority of real-world music contexts, yes, a G# is tonally an Ab. Or else lots of arrangements and even instruments just are made wrong…

4

Are you referring to cases where the composer is writing in C-flat (7 flats) when they could just write in B (5 sharps) and have done with it? That’s a darn good question, and one I don’t have an answer for. If you’re asking why bother with the tough key signatures altogether, it probably has to do with that being where the composer hears the notes. They just fit in the framework of, say, D-flat rather than C.

I’m not an authority on Eastern scales, but there are some Western scales that have intervals greater than a whole step. Most notably, this would be the harmonic minor form of a scale. There ends up being a step and a half in between the 6th and 7th scale degrees.

No, it is not possible for there to be both flats and sharps within the same key signature. That isn’t to say that you can’t use sharps as accidentals throughout the course of the song. What really gets crazy is when you have things like double sharps. Like so:

The key of G# minor is considered to be the relative minor of the key of B Major. This means that it shares B Major’s key signature. If we were to write G# minor in its “natural minor” form, we’d use the 5 sharps that are in B Major (F# C# G# D# and A#). Like this:

G# - A#- B - C# - D# - E - F# - G#

If we convert this into harmonic minor, we raise the 7th scale degree by one half step. The reason for doing this is to preserve the half step leading from the 7th note back to the main (or tonic) note of the scale. In a C scale, for example, the B really leaves you hanging and waiting to hear C again. That’s why the 7th scale degree is referred to as “the leading tone”.

If we raise the 7th note in the key of G# minor, it would mean raising F# to, essentially, G natural. But the rules of music prohibit it being written as a G natural, because that would mean we’ve skipped F in the scale, and are using G twice. So instead, it gets written like:

G# - A# - B - C# - D# - E - F## - G#.

So, F## = G. And yes, G# = A-flat no matter what the instrument is.

Hope this helps!
spousebicycle (piano teacher)

5

There’s another thread floating around here somewhere that discusses the different “feels” and “colors” of different keys. Whether subconsciously (as to the amateur listener) or consciously (as to professional musicians), different keys do indeed sound different and therefore might be chosed over another key. Of course, it could also have to do with the main instrument… the writer may want to compensate for a strange tuning by placing it in an easy key for the player.

You can’t have flats and sharps in the same key signature, but you can have two different key signatures being played at the same time. Did I just blow your mind? For example, in some really screwy piano pieces (like John Cage-screwy, you know?) he might put the right hand in B-flat (two flats in the signature) and the left hand in D (two sharps) just because he likes the strange contrast that provides.

Your question about the G-sharp/A-flat thing is misleading. A G-sharp is always the same as an A-flat, no matter what instrument you’re talking about. I think what you’re asking is “are those two notes played the same way”. And the answer is: maybe. There are several ways to play the same note on a guitar, violin, etc… so it just depends on fingering, key, etc… But on a piano, yes, it’s the same.

6

Did I just say “chosed”? :smack:

7

The main reason for ‘extravagent’ key signatures being used isn’t because of individual keys - it’s about the relationships between keys, modulation, etc. Some pieces manage to get so far into the ‘flat keys’ that they need to shift to the sharp enharmonic equivalent (described by fishbicycle) to remain meaningful. There’s examples of this in symphonies by Schubert and Dvorak. There’s also the opening of the Britten violin concerto, which within about twenty bars finds its way from D minor(ish) into G flat minor (equating to B double-flat major…)
Oh, and you can have sharps and flats in the same key signature, once you get into Bartok folk-music-influenced composition and beyond.

8

I’ve said it before on these boards, and I’ll say it again. The piano is one of the very few instruments that regularly plays enharmonics at the same pitch. Orchestral strings don’t, brass don’t, woodwind don’t. Not unless they have a specific need to, either because they’re shifting from C flat major to B major, or because they’re playing Webern. (And even he was methodical in his enharmonic substitutions.)

9

Well, as to the first question, there might be a few different reasons. You mentioned idiosyncracies of a particular instrument which often has a lot to do with it. But as for a capella vocal music, it may have been composed on an instrument where the composer is more comfortable in one key than another. Or it may have been composed for a particular group where the actual vocal range of the performers was an issue and thus had to be transposed. Or it may simply be a composers method of breaking out of old habits (you tend to write differently in C# than you would in C).

Your next question is a bit more complicated. If you are talking about non-western music, than you have to assess your question based on the system being used. The terms “sharp” and “flat” are specific to our western system.

Ahhh, wait… I think I misread.

Technically no. The key signature just refers to that area at the beginning of the score where the sharps and flats of key (in its natural form) are indicated. So, if you were in, say, D minor, the key signature is Bb (i.e. only one note is flatted and that is the B), but in harmonic minor there would also be a C# in the music, but not indicated in the key signature. The C# is considered an altered tone.

Now take all this with a grain of salt. This is all true in the traditional western system. But in the 20th century all bets became off. You can pretty much do whatever you want today. Remember, the only point to notation is to make it clear to the performers how the music in your head should sound.

I’ll wait to be corrected by a violinist on this but I believe all of our standard orchestral instruments are equally tempered such that, yes, they are they same note. However, according to the physical ratios of the actual sound waves of the pitches in our scale, a G# is actually lower in pitch than an Ab. We sort of cheat a little to make it all work out so that all keys can be played on our instruments. Without this cheat, some keys would sound perfect while others would sound horribly out of tune.

10

And you’d be right. Except in an unexpected way.

In some situations you might say that a G# should be played a little closer to A, if the context of the phrase implies that you’re leading up towards A. Likewise, an Ab may sometimes be played a little closer to G, on the assumption that you’re leading down towards G.

Maybe in a string quartet or solo situation, but not in orchestral playing.

Also, don’t forget the transposition factor. Instruments such as Bb clarinet or Bb trumpet are going to have two fewer flats in their key signatures than the rest of the orchestra.

11

When you say you’ve encounted this in a capella music, are you sure it was originally written for just voices? Maybe it was transcribed for that.
Sometimes a bit of music is written and then later someone writes out a part for, let’s say, an E-flat alto sax. That has to be transcribed into a new key for the sax player. This can lead to some funky keys. Sometimes a bit was written for the sax and then transcribed out for a guitar.
Sometimes a composer just decides, (for artistic reasosn) that the tonic is going to be B# and to hell with those lazy#%@** musicians.

12

Only chromatic instruments can be equally-tempered - and that rules out all orchestral strings, wind and brass. They may be able to choose to play with equal temperament when necessary, but that doesn’t mean that they do as a matter of course - a good unison sound in an orchestral classical/romantic unison precludes the fudges of equal-temperament.

13

Sorry, make that only truly chromatic instruments (the complexities of flute & clarinet mechanisms is still only an approximation).

14

Ooops, got caught on the phone before I posted and it looks others have given their excellent answers before I could.

And on preview:

So I’m curious GorillaMan, in an orchestral piece with a piano, if the strings and piano were both playing in unison would they sound out of tune with each other, or are the strings expected to temper themselves?

15

When dealing with the complex polyphony and timbre of an orchestra, nobody is able to play in tune with the piano. It doesn’t jar, because the differences aren’t great - and because yes, the dominant feature is the piano. Good sections, and indeed good orchestras, deal with all such issues without even thinking about them. Which is why many players don’t realise that so much complex variation of intonation has happened. It’s when a player tackles a piece such as the Britten I mentioned earlier that they suddenly need to decide exactly which intervals will ‘lose’ some of their value to keep from straying an eighth-tone away from the orchestra!

Also thinking about the piano/orchestra issue - I can’t speak from a position of knowledge, but it seems to me that exposed woodwind entries in piano concertos tend to be challenging - I’m suspecting that intonation/temperament issues could partially be to blame (added to the fact they often can’t hear the piano :wink: )

16

(Answering as a string player, but I’m not GorillaMan)

Well, see, we have these things called fingers that can go pretty much wherever they please.

As for the open strings, the A is always gonna be right, and the others are close enough to equal temperament to not be a problem, even if you tune them in true fifths. Realistically, I tune my open strings just slightly tight if there’s a piano involved.

17

That is, I tune my open fifths just slightly tight.

18

I’ll bring the E down when in a full string ensemble, because the open four consecutive fifths down to a cello/viola C is enough to be noticeable (ie problematic!) otherwise.

19

Aha! Though this isn’t specifically what I was referring to, it’s a good point. I think this is more prevalent in pop music, in which there’s a great deal of sliding between the notes, rather than precise attacks. But I can see how a “leading” note can serve a similar purpose.