Assassinations and the US

Great Debates
1

I’ve been watching this really interesting low budget documentary lately that discusses the shady dealings of the CIA and FBI. I don’t know the title, if there is one. The tape I’m borrowing simply says, “Please Make Copies.”

But one thing that particularly horrified me was the evidence linking the CIA to the assassination of several black panthers.
COINTELPRO, an FBI program, was basically aimed at dissidents within America.

The film shows some FBI documents in which there are plans to kill Fred Hampton, a famous BP. There is a drawing of the layout of his apartment. Supposedly his security officer, a FBI informant, drugged Hampton and Hampton was killed by the Chicago Police as they served him a warrant at 3 in the morning. His pregnant wife was shot (although both wife and baby survived), and the apartment was riddled with hundreds of bullets. Another Panther, Mark Clark, was also killed that night.

One professor on the tape noted: “the FBI never personally killed any black panthers, they always had local policemen do their dirty work.”

The FBI had a S2 unit which was called “the racial squad” and focused on the Black Panthers and similar movements. The LAPD had a Criminal Conspiracy Unit, and the two units worked together in taking down the BPP. Bunchy Carter and John Huggins, two black panthers, were gunned down by the LAPD on the UCLA campus. As Huggins was the BPP leader in LA, Geronimo Pratt took over after his death.

Pratt was later framed for the “Tennis Court Murders” in Santa Monica, although he had a solid alibi in Oakland that night. An FBI informant, Julius Butler, was the only supposed witness to the crime, and he testifed that he disposed of the gun after the murders. Very convenient as to why there was no physical evidence tracing Pratt to the scene.

The film interviews Phillip Agee, a former CIA officer, who admitted that the CIA and FBI had liasons with local police departments around the country.

Sam ____, who ran the BPP paper, was also killed by police. As was Bobby Hutton.

In Detroit, at the New African New Bethel (a haven for radicals), police officers opened fire on men, women, and children.

FBI Agent Richard G. Held, a primary architect of COINTELPRO, orchestrated the trial against Pratt and the Pine Ridge incident against the American Indian Movement.

Hundreds of Panthers, other Black Nationalist Revolutionaries, and American Indian Revolutionaires were arrested on trumped-up, phony charges between '70-'73.

And, apart from this movie, I know that it is widely accepted that the US had a large part in the assassination of Diem in Vietnam. And then there is the whole Waco thing, and the probability that the Branch Davidians were not firing at anyone, but were rather massacred.

Anyways, my question is this: What should be done about this? What can be done against this?

How can we ensure that people who don’t agree with popular American ideology aren’t killed or imprisoned for their beliefs?

colin

2

Why you may want to do is research the facts in each of these cases against more reliable sources and then draw your own conclusions.
Also, popular ideology does not include taking up arms against the government.

3

Of course, there’s also the all-important possibility that the CIA is actually a front for the Illuminati.

I choose not to believe without evidence the type of hypotheses forwarded by your videotape. You’re welcome to.

But I’ll ask this: if there is a systematic program for the elimination of vocal opponents of “popular American ideology,” can you explain Abbie Hoffman, Louis Farrakhan, Bobby Seale, David Hilliard, Fred Phelps, ALF (the group, not the alien), and thousands of other would-be subversives and revolutionaries?

4

Isn’t Fred Hampton the guy who was actually shot through a wall and some people claim that the police were able to do this on purpose because they somehow knew exactly where he would be?

Personally, I’m dubious.

5

EXCUSE ME???!!!??? What right-wing nut jobs have you been reading/watching/listening to?

Video of the ATF’s advance on the Dividian compound clearly shows that the Davidians were in fact, firing on the ATF officers. This is especially prominent in the clip of the ATF officed who is on the roof and tries to push away the curtain covering an open window frame when suddenly the wall next to him explodes with bullet holes firedfrom inside the building. The officer is then obviously hit several times, but somehow manages to get back down a ladder. I don’'t know if he was one of the ATF that were killed that day, but spare me this bullshit about the Dividians not firing on anybody.

Also, as far as the Dividians being massacred, if they were, the evidence seems to lead towards it being an inside job, especially where the children were concerned. Many of the kids had apparently been shot and murdered soon after the fire started inside the compound. And the kids were in a bunker, so it’s pretty obvious that it sure as fuck wasn’t the ATF who did the killing.

6

A better way to phrase this would be “how can we ensure that violent, fanatical, and/or hate groups like The Black Panthers, the Branch Davidians, the KKK, anti-abortionists, Neo-Nazis, militia groups in Montana and others who don’t believe in the popular American ideology of using peaceable assembly and the democratic process to enact change aren’t imprisoned or killed in a hail of bullets when they resist law enforcement officers with heir Constitutionally protected aresenal?”

7

The ALF and the ELF, two very great groups, are anonymous. There are not people from these organizations who go out and rally, or even admit to being members. They simply blow up buildings that contribute to the suffering of animals and/or the environment, and then send an anonymous communique to a “hired spokesperson not affiliated with the group” so he can post it on the internet. If the US could find these groups, they would. And they would rain hell upon them.

Obviously, it was not a systematic program of elimination…It was operatives working with the “insurgency” or “conspiracy” sections of local police departments nailing people when they could, and when they felt they needed to. It was the FBI paying informants to spin lies about murders committed by BP members, or planting informants within black nationalist movements in attempts to destroy them.

MOre tactics than outright assassination were used, and many of them are legal and/or used by police nationwide. I’m not trying to push a crazy conspiracy theory. In fact, the conspiracy in this case seems to be very minimal. It is not like the Iran-Contra or anything.

Do you agree that the FBI/CIA have done plenty of questionable things in the past. Do you agree that the CIA imported crack into inner cities to try to diffuse black nationalism? Do you agree that police officers often times abuse their power?

If so, you are not too far off from what I believe.

If you think that the FBI/CIA and police officers have always used lawful means, then I would say you are the one living in a fantasy world.

Of course, it is very probable you fall somewhere inbetween…

colin

8

It is okay if you are dubious. I probably would be too.

But the Fred Hampton killing was one of the more tangible things in the video. They showed local news reports of the apartment, which was unbelievably bullet addled. There was also some sort of (police?) video actually showing the scene of the crime, with Fred laying down on the ground beside his bed, completely torn up.

If you were to believe that the police had a reason to be shooting through the wall, and that Fred Hampton happened to be there, it is a stretch but okay. But since I saw hundreds of bullet holes, even if police didn’t come in, they were obviously gunning for someone/thing.

THe way I see it; Fred Hampton was killed by the CPD. Whether it was from COINTELPRO influence or rather from police officers going to serve a warrant who happened to be jumpy and fired before they had reason to is the question.

But then…why serve a warrant at 3 a.m? Especially considering the fact that Hampton’s bodyguard turned out to be an informant, is it not possible that the bodyguard did indeed drug Hampton? I think it would be a huge coincidence if the CPD didn’t intend to kill him that night.

9

I try not to listen to right wing nut jobs. I said, “the probability.” I’m not on the side of the Branch Davidians at all.
And I don’t have much information on the incident, other than a documentary entitled “Rules of Engagement.” This documentary may indeed be lies, but it paid a hell of a lot of attention to the available video tape on the incident.

To me, the issue is unsettled. I’m not sure. If someone has information which refutes the specific points made by “Rules of Engagement,” I am more than willing to listen.

To me, it is a bit fishy, to say the least.

10

More than any other reply, this has offended me the most. To group the BPP with the other groups (which besides the Branch Davidians are clearly hate groups- and the Branch Davidians were propagandized by a crazy mofo w/ a Jesus complex) is completely insulting.

Allow me to dispel a few myths:

  1. The BPP was not a racist organization. Fred Hampton was the one who started the Rainbow Coalition- groups of all different colors united against the oppression of the US government. I have read quotes from dozens of BP leaders saying ultimately the same thing: a) we are against oppression, whether it be by black, brown, yellow, or white, and b) we will work side by side with anybody who wants to make a difference in this country.

  2. The BPP was not a terrorist organization. The bulk of the BPP movement was dedicated to improving the inner cities. They fed around 10,000 people a day nationwide with free food kitchens. They started clinics and schools in the inner cities. They were about change. They were about the betterment of the poor (who were predominantly black in the inner cities). But yes, they were also radical, and also tailed police officers to make sure no police brutality was going on in their neighborhoods.

I disagree with their use of guns and their threats of violence, only because it made it that much easier for the government to decimate the party. But the members of the BPP wanted a better world for the millions of poor people in this country. A truly noble cause.

They are not the KKK, they are not anti-abortionists, and they are not Neo-Nazis. Your comparison was not only completely unfair, but also ignorant. I understand completely, as most people only know what they hear from the media, or the government line, which of course emphasizes the more violent tactics the BPP used.

Furthermore, the “shootouts” with police are all sketchy at best. The fact that they made no secret of carrying guns (as I said before) made it very easy for the establishment to call an assassination a “shootout.”

The only thing the BPP hated was oppression, and the oppressors. All decent people should hate those things/people as well.

11

:shrug: Okeedokee. I think your therories are completely inane and without basis. But they’re yours, and your welcome to cherish them.

12

Er, that’s “you’re welcome to” of course.

13

The Black Panthers were a criminal enterprise who used radical politics as PR. They were murderous thugs who pretended to care about other people to further their own agendas. Here is an article which discusses some of their crimes.
http://www.salon.com/col/horo/1997/12/nc_01horo2.html

14

How dare the US government even think about doing anything to these “great” groups! All they’re doing is breaking all sorts of laws, putting hundreds of lives in danger, doing probably millions of dollars worth of damage to other people’s property, all without having the balls to stand up and say “Yes I did this.”. I mean, isn’t blowing up buildings a constitutional right or something? Goddam fascists in the government are oppressing us!

15

Ummm . . I don’t think that he meant “great” in the sense of “good.”

Of course, I could be wrong. colinito, care to explain further?

16

Because

  1. They knew where he would be at a certain time.
  2. At 3 AM, it is less likely he would be waiting for them ready to put up a fight
  3. At 3 AM, a groggy person just out of bed is much less likely to be well equipped to try to run away.
  4. They knew he would be harder to get at other times, especially if they knew he would be leaving for somewhere else in the near future.

But hey, give me more than 60 seconds and I bet I could come up with a few more completely plausible reasons that a warrant would be served at 3 AM.

17

Yah, it’s fairly standard practice under some corcumstances. Nothing unusual or worthy of concern.

18

Puddleglum,

You insult the name of a fine marshwiggle.

There were some racists in the Panthers. There were some criminals in the Panthers too. That happens to be true also of the Republican Party, the Catholic Church, the Girl Scouts of America, The National Association for the Advancement of Science, and probably the Sister of Mercy.

The Black Panther Party as a whole organization included a lot of people, mostly black, who were fed up with the one inch foreword, one inch back pace of the fight for racial equality in the United States. Many of the members felt that among the black people of this nation criminality was the default condition of any black man, in the eyes of the minions of the State. To counter that massive consensus they felt it was justified to consider all government agents to be the specific enemies of the Black Panther Party, if not all black people.

The sad part, for the nation was that the incumbent administration and the newly powerful intelligence community were entirely willing to accept that adversarial position, and prosecute any party member for whatever possible infraction could be pressed. Over a few years this practice, now usually admitted to be at the very least malicious prosecution, the hard facts began to emerge. Uppity Niggers were gonna get smacked down hard and fast.

The Uppity Niggers didn’t like that. Some of them made it clear that they considered the police armed and dangerous, and very few in government at the time were willing to try to mediate that attitude on either side.

Now for a bit of conspiracy theory. The CIA did in fact act outside of its legal mandate to spy on, and conduct operations against purely domestic political processes. The evidence is overwhelming that this was the case. Exactly what they did is not so clear. The information they provided to local and national police authorities was accepted as undeniable proof of whatever the CIA said it was. Due process was an administrative fiction. These actions may not have been a conspiracy of unified operational intent, but it served the same purpose as if it was. Panthers died in large numbers, and others went to jail on thin evidence, provided by paid informants.

Pictures of young black men with automatic weapons scared the crap out of the national parties. The fact that not everyone else automatically assumed that the Panthers were the bad guys scared them even worse. When the Rainbow coalition proved that even legitimate political power was available to the radical fringe, power politics demanded an immediate solution. Not one man, not one small group of conspiring bad cops, but the structure of entrenched political power itself was the source of this “conspiracy.”

It wasn’t a conspiracy; it was a consensus. If party politics was to be held accountable by the poor, in this case black, then it would be held accountable for every act of favoritism, every ideal expressed in public forums, and every promise made by candidates in elections. The Vietnam War had stirred up more passion against nationalistic complaisance than had ever been experienced by government. Stopping the Panthers was essential to assuring everyone that the silent majority was not discontented. And they did stop them. Who are “they”?

They were us.

Tris

“We have met the enemy and it is us.” ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo ~

19

I wasn’t referring to the ALF and ELF in the same sense as I was referring to the Black Panthers. Yes, what the ALF and ELF do is completely illegal. And not just illegal like going 10 miles over the speed limit or smoking a little ganja- it is definitely provocative damage to (what they see as) oppressive institutions.

As I see those institutions as oppressive as well, I am very glad that there are people with enough balls to do it. I don’t think I could. So, in that sense, I think they are “great.”

But, I do look at them in the same sense as the Panthers in a certain way: I love the ideals but disagree with the tactics (when the tactics include violence or the threat of violence).

Both organizations take very risky measures to ensure that they do not kill anyone with their fires. They are interested in destroying the material wealth of digusting giants like Monsanto, and destroying any experiments and/or files that they can. They do it with controlled fires. But there is always the possibility that something goes wrong- that somebody gets hurt. Although it hasn’t happened yet it might, and the cause would have to take a few steps back.

But, I digress. I have no problem with the government going after people who break the law, as long as the government follows the rules; that is, as long as the government does not violate the rights we are guaranteed as American citizens.

colin

20

That is fine with me. But, when you say ‘without basis,’ it makes me wonder what you think of the FBI and CIA, and what you are willing to admit that they do.

The CIA got busted on the Iran-Contra thing, and has committed numerous atrocities across the globe. They have put murderous despots in power in Southeast Asia, Africa, and Central and South America. The public has found that the CIA has helped get crack into inner cities.

The FBI has intruded on dissidents’ civil rights numerous times. Wire taps, illegal break-ins… And this is not conspiracy theory stuff, this is widely accepted by experts on the matter and former agents.

I think the track record the FBI and CIA has had provides a basis for my statements. That does not validate my statements of course, but there is a basis.

colin