[QUOTE=you with the face]
As others have mentioned, she is overplaying the experience card. If she keeps doing it during the debates, Obama is going to end up firing back with something that makes her look foolish. “Since when is being First Lady a credential?”
[/QUOTE]
To which she could come back "Since we’re discounting Senate experience, Mr. Obama, do you have any other credentials whatsoever?
[QUOTE=DMark]
Would it make any difference in racial attitudes towards blacks in the South, or in other conservative communities?
[/QUOTE]
Any impact Obama has on the racial attitudes in the south or in conservative communities is likely to be a negative one. From what I see, the most concentrated area of racism against blacks comes from the South, which is also deeply conservative. Obama will likely not gain much ground with conservatives, and certainly won’t with racists, so he has little hope of changing much on this front. Being a liberal AND being black is only going to give the racist conservatives more ammunition, not less. They certainly won’t see black people in a new light when their shining star is a God-hating, socialist librul pansy who despises freedom.
It would make a positive difference, possibly, if Obama were a Republican. Then, if nothing else, a racist conservative might find that at least Obama is on his side. A necessary evil type of thing.
[QUOTE=The Controvert]
To which she could come back "Since we’re discounting Senate experience, Mr. Obama, do you have any other credentials whatsoever?
[/QUOTE]
He’s got plenty, so that would be a foolish comeback for her to use.
[QUOTE=The Controvert]
You know how some people are in the “anyone but Hillary” camp? I’m in the “anyone but Obama” camp. I have a feeling if he is elected, he will be the worst person for the job out of all the other candidates who are running. The only worse possible outcome for 2008 in my opinion is if Dubya rips up the constitution and somehow gets himself re-elected (and everybody complained but nobody actually stopped him just like everything else he gets away with).
It’s the same feeling I got when Bush was running for President. Something is off, yet everyone is following him like sheep. I have a feeling Obama generates a sort of blind idealism like Bush followers. If he does win it and screw up, it will take a long time for anyone to admit it. But remember you heard it here first!
[/QUOTE]
You didn’t really answer the question. What you are uncomfortable with Obama’s experience, fair enough. What experience does Hillary have?
Why is no one is able to explain that to me?
[QUOTE=cinehead]
You didn’t really answer the question. What you are uncomfortable with Obama’s experience, fair enough. What experience does Hillary have?
Why is no one is able to explain that to me?
[/QUOTE]
From the candidate’s websites. Note I left off a lot of HRC’s board memberships.
Hillary Clinton:
[ul]
[li]Staff Attorney, Children’s Defense Fund[/li][li]Counsel for House Judiciary Committee considering the impeachment of Richard Nixon[/li][li]Founder of Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families[/li][li]Boardmember of the United States Legal Services Corporation (appointed by Jimmy Carter)[/li][li]First Lady of the US (People who don’t consider this to be experience are being ridiculous)[/li][li]US Senator, State of New York (2000-present)[/li][/ul]
Barack Obama
[ul]
[li]Community organizer in Chicago[/li][li]Civil rights lawyer and professor[/li][li]State Senator, Illinois (8 years)[/li][li]US Senator, State of Illinois (2004-present)[/li][/ul]
Of course, each job - especially the Senator jobs - encompasses a million other things.
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
From the candidate’s websites. Note I left off a lot of HRC’s board memberships.
Hillary Clinton:
[ul]
[li]Staff Attorney, Children’s Defense Fund[/li][li]Counsel for House Judiciary Committee considering the impeachment of Richard Nixon[/li][li]Founder of Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families[/li][li]Boardmember of the United States Legal Services Corporation (appointed by Jimmy Carter)[/li][li]First Lady of the US (People who don’t consider this to be experience are being ridiculous)[/li][li]US Senator, State of New York (2000-present)[/li][/ul]
Barack Obama
[ul]
[li]Community organizer in Chicago[/li][li]Civil rights lawyer and professor[/li][li]State Senator, Illinois (8 years)[/li][li]US Senator, State of Illinois (2004-present)[/li][/ul]
Of course, each job - especially the Senator jobs - encompasses a million other things.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Both have been lawyers and politicians. Neither has experience in running an an executive branch of government. Now, I don’t think you need to have been a governor to become a effective president. All and all it’s a wash. I don’t see any big advantages on Hillary’s resume.
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
[li]First Lady of the US (People who don’t consider this to be experience are being ridiculous)[/li]
[/QUOTE]
I definitely think it’s experience, but it’s not the type of experience she should be clubbing someone over the head with. The First Lady is not an elected position or even a salaried position.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
I definitely think it’s experience, but it’s not the type of experience she should be clubbing someone over the head with. The First Lady is not an elected position or even a salaried position.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know if she’s “clubbed people over the head” with it. Nevertheless, given her role with any number of initiatives - children’s rights, health care, and serving as a goodwill ambassador - I’d say it should count for something. The fact that this work is nonsalaried makes it all the more impressive.
As much as I am loath to include her, I’d have to say Nancy Reagan was similarly influential in her “just say no to drugs” work (which I personally found ineffectual and wrongheaded, but nevertheless influenced drug policy in the US throughout the 1980s).
[QUOTE=Voyager]
Are you joking about Romney? The Times today said that an awful lot of Huck voters did it because they wanted someone who shared their faith. When George Romney ran (and I’m old enough to remember that) his religion wasn’t an issue, but we’ve gotten a lot crazier about religion since then.
I think JFK winning did reduce anti-Catholic prejudice, but remember he wasn’t nearly as Catholic as Romney is Mormon. Maybe that made people less nervous.
[/QUOTE]
Voyager, I realize that sarcasm is sometimes difficult to express in writing. Did you check the link about Lieberman?
Let me express my opinion in a non-sarcastic, non-ironic fashion. Kennedy’s election did NOT end religious bigotry. As you note, in some ways we’ve gotten a lot crazier since then.
Similarly, even if Obama is elected, his race will NEVER be a non-issue.
Here’s my take, and I think it would indeed be huge.
Why do whites want to elect a black president?
I think that white people, even racist white people to some extent, want to see black people become more successful. Obviously not the “send them back to Africa” racists, but the “I wish they didn’t cause so many problems” racists.
Secondly, have you any idea how much of an inspiration he could be to black Americans? He is the culmination of Dr. King’s dream. Imagine the possibilities. Barack is an interesting beast. He grew up in a decidedly non-black environment (single white mother). He made a decision to set down roots in the black community and “become black” in Chicago. He married a black woman with heavy family roots. It’s in his first book. His family before him had been uprooting themselves for two generations, and he decided the way forward was to plant himself firmly.
Now what would it mean for black kids growing up? How about a class act black role model? Any black kid in the future who is accused of “acting white” because they want to read a book will have instant ammo to those who feel like it is a crime against black culture.
I think we’re on the verge of something truly amazing.
One lasting image that really gets me. And it gets me really good. Did you guys see his victory speech in Iowa? The content was amazing, that’s for sure, but how about seeing his adorable family on the stage before he gave his speech. I mean the guy has about the two cutest daughters you’ll ever see and a wonderful wife. They would be the first family. A black first family. Man that is just amazing to think about. Michelle Obama is amazing in her own right, btw. She’s something else.
But yes I think a possible Obama victory would be a great thing for blacks in America. What an inspiration he is to anyone…even moreso for blacks.
So yeah, I think it is the beginning of the end of racism in America if he gets elected.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Secondly, have you any idea how much of an inspiration he could be to black Americans? He is the culmination of Dr. King’s dream. Imagine the possibilities. Barack is an interesting beast. He grew up in a decidedly non-black environment (single white mother). He made a decision to set down roots in the black community and “become black” in Chicago. He married a black woman with heavy family roots.
[/quote]
Eh, I dunno, man. I think whites are overestimating how much an inspiration Obama is to black Americans. Don’t get me wrong, the guy has a great story, but it’s not like he’s the first black guy to be somebody. I can’t imagine a black kid in the projects looking at Obama and seeing themselves in his shoes. As you point out, he came from an environment not unlike your typical white guy. His white mother has become household knowledge as well. Just as these details have a way of making Obama more relatable/palatable to white Americans, they also affect how readily blacks perceive him to be their dream come true.
And to be honest, if black folks start to suspect that his popularity is directly proportional to how much attention his white pedigree and upbringing receives in the press, they will be even less likely to be inspired should he get elected. The take home message for them will be that in order to be become president as a black man, you gotta have something white you can take to the bank. Black folks can be cynical that way.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Black folks can be cynical that way.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but why are they so loud? 
IANA sociologist, but a think a lot of what passes for racism these days is just race serving as a proxy for cultural prejudices–mainly prejudice against so-called ‘black ghetto’ culture, which most white people hate and fear. But it’s not about race, per se–I’m white, for example, but I would feel more comfortable hanging out with a white-collar black professional than a white redneck. White people approve of Powell and Obama because they’re not black–that is to say, their skin is dark, but culturally they have more in common with well-to-do white Americans than they do with ghetto blacks, which is the ‘black culture’ for which blackness serves as a proxy in today’s racism.
So Obama being elected doesn’t help racism because he isn’t a representative of *that * culture, and that culture is the focus of anti-black racism, IMO.
I don’t know how coherent that was–I am very tired–but hopefully it makes some sense.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Yeah, but why are they so loud?
[/QUOTE]
It’s okay to use your outside voice when you’re camping.
As these most recent comments humorously illustrate, there are many stereotypes persistently held about what it means to be “Black” in America. An Obama Presidency, heck, just his serious run - not as a Black American but as an American with many other identifications including “Black”- helps reduce those stereotypes some. It helps both Blacks and Whites question their assumptions about what it means to be “Black” in America and that’s a good thing.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Yeah, but why are they so loud?
[/QUOTE]
Because we’re so def.
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
So Obama being elected doesn’t help racism because he isn’t a representative of *that * culture, and that culture is the focus of anti-black racism, IMO.
[/QUOTE]
Good point.
I can’t speak to the credibility of Salon columnist Debra Dickerson, but she went on Colbert a while back and said that Obama is not ‘African American’ but ‘African African American.’ It sounds slightly ridiculous and a little racist but I doubt she’s alone in her sentiments.
[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Good point.
I can’t speak to the credibility of Salon columnist Debra Dickerson, but she went on Colbert a while back and said that Obama is not ‘African American’ but ‘African African American.’ It sounds slightly ridiculous and a little racist but I doubt she’s alone in her sentiments.
[/QUOTE]
its amazing to me that the first African American to have a real shot at the presidency does not share a recent genetic or cultural black ancestry/history with the vast majority of African Americans.
[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Good point.
I can’t speak to the credibility of Salon columnist Debra Dickerson, but she went on Colbert a while back and said that Obama is not ‘African American’ but ‘African African American.’ It sounds slightly ridiculous and a little racist but I doubt she’s alone in her sentiments.
[/QUOTE]
Can you explain why this sounds racist to you? I remember when this was making the rounds, and never found her argument racist or ridiculous.
Is anyone serious on Colbert?
I was surprised during an Obama speech to hear what one usually hears at revivals or Blues concerts; a woman crying out, “Tell it! Tell it!” It seemed out of place. It would not have seemed unusual to me during a speech by Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. Apparently on some subliminal level I don’t perceive Obama to be Black, although he obviously is. I would very much like to hear the opinion of Dopers of color on this subject.