What I am wondering is, how much could Trump harm specific groups and sacrifice traditional US “values” without the Rs facing electoral difficulties? Don’t get me wrong - I HATE nearly everything he has done. But I’m still living in my comfortable home, still have my job, my investments haven’t taken excessive irreversible hits…
I’m wondering how many folk - while philosophically opposed to Trump’s agenda - may eventually start thinking, “Hmm - you know, gov’t is smaller and I personally haven’t been terribly inconvenienced. Maybe all those fed workers and programs WERE expendable. And, BTW, I don’t mind paying lower taxes.” I think a lot of folk on the left like to think of their fellow Dems as somewhat intelligent and “good.” But my belief is that a significant portion of Dems may be swayed by their personal situation. And if they or someone they care for is not being directly harmed, they might cease to be outraged - and might even slip over to the other side.
To date, Trump’s actions have so far primarily affected persons with non-standard citizenship issues, or traditionally disadvantaged beneficiaries of DEI programs. And they have harmed somewhat “vague/immaterial” matters - such as our country’s image abroad. I wonder how many people will remain outraged about their “philosophical” concerns, if they do not personally experience significant MATERIAL harm.
“Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than ‘politics’. They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren’t nice people? Resisters.”
So yeah; I’m pretty sure the answer is “literally killing people by the millions in death camps”, judging from history.
Trump’s orders and Elon Musk’s fuckshittery have hurt far more than undocumented immigrants, green card holders, or “traditionally disadvantaged beneficiaries of DEI programs”. (For what the latter is worth, I’m not sure that has directly ‘hurt’ that many people; in my experience a lot of DEI programs are essentially corporate whitewashing that doesn’t actually impact hiring or company culture very much, and either companies are on board with diversity and inclusion because they see the competitive advantages of it, like Costco, or they never were and aside from some highly publicized token efforts have done fuck-all to change their culture.)
Tens of thousands of government employees—some of them highly skilled mid- and senior level professionals who came to work for the government after years of navigating the byzantine maze of federal hiring practices—have been dismissed, forced out, or accepted early retirement/incentive packages to resign. Hundreds of thousands of more face cuts to their agencies or budget lines, and what will almost be a succession of impending federal ‘partial shutdowns’ due to a totally dysfunctional GOP-led Congress, and literally millions of federal contractors state/county/municipal workers whose livelihoods are based upon federal funds, researchers/educators/public health workers dependent upon federal grants, and of course the economic effects of persecuting the workforce that does much of the low paid, backbreaking labor harvesting fruit and vegetable crops, light construction, elder care, et cetera that we can’t seem to pay enough for ‘Real Americans’ to take on. Or if we get hit with another severe pandemic, or a series of natural disasters, or lose access to necessary resources and fundamental technologies to support our industrial base. Or if Trump actually emplaces and convinces enough people in senior military leadership to effectively invoke martial law in response to public protests or activism.
The question isn’t whether people are going to get progressively more upset or outraged as Trump & Co. continue to expand their onerous, Heritage Foundation-scoped agenda. It is a question of whether they are going to organize into an effective resistance; whether mid-term elections are going to matter much even if Democrats actually effect a ‘blue wave’ of voter sentiment (of which I remain unconvinced), or whether a Reichstag Fire-like event occurs or is engineered that essentially allows this regime to overtly remove or obviate all of the remaining strictures and institutions of accountability and democracy.
On occasion you and I have disagreed re: things Trump in the past, and I imagine we will in the future. But simply because you believe people will get more upset does not necessarily make it so.
IME, folk are very good at adapting to the new “normal”, even if that new normal is significantly worse than what they had before. Of each group of potential voters you list, to the extent they voted, I’d suggest roughly half of them voted Trump. How much will it take for those people to vote Dem?
What percentage of Dem voters do you believe the various groups you describe make up? If it isn’t 100%, that leaves some percentage of Dem voters who might potentially decide, “Hmm, it hasn’t been that bad. And, at least I wasn’t hurt too badly.” I certainly do not think many voters at large to be overly concerned about the personal fortunes of some fired gov’t workers.
I hope you are right and that there is a huge backlash to come. But I fear you may be ignoring the ignorance, laziness, and short memories of a good portion of voters of either party.
There are two groups of people: those who understand that they are personally affected and those with their heads in the sand (after a few minutes reflection I modified the location of their heads). EVERYONE will be personally affected.
Anything addressing climate change will be scrubbed from the government, replaced with programs that will exacerbate climate change (drill, baby, drill only makes money for the oligarchs if it is accompanied by burn, baby, burn). The issue with the highest likelihood of global destabilization in our lifetimes will be rendered a non-issue by Minitru.
The ability to respond to health crises will be kneecapped. We’ll just pretend that everything is fine, if we just don’t test then there is no health crisis.
You want to know if dangerous weather is threatening? Try the Farmer’s Almanac, NOAA is a bunch of climate change believers.
Cancer research? Who wants that?
Social Security and Medicare? Musk doesn’t need it so it must be a scam.
Free speech? As long as you agree with us. We’ll use any means necessary to shut you up - like defunding your university. How about a loyalty oath to get your Social Security benefits? Or maybe your voter ID?
You like you National Parks? Wait until you see Trump Canyon, complete with rim-to-rim uranium mines.
I could go on and on. Those who think they won’t be personally affected have wet pants and can see the pyramids.
I understand and agree. But I am not discussing what intelligent, rational, caring folk understand and act upon. I’m discussing voter behavior - which might be somewhat different.
This morning a Black contractor I was working with mentioned a discussion he was having with one of our staff who is strongly MAGA. He did not know what DEI meant, and had never heard of Reconstruction. So explain to me how that sort of voter is likely to be influenced by factors that do not smack him in his face.
I may have misunderstood your OP. I thought you were talking about people who in theory oppose MAGA but aren’t motivated to fight back because they think it doesn’t affect them directly. Strong MAGAs will need something to slap them in the face to wake them up. If even that would work.
I’m just concerned with the large mass of relatively uninformed and not terribly motivated voters on both sides. My example was off topic, I admit. But I was thinking of how uninformed many votes can be.
I apologize for a “flabby” thread. I guess I’m just not overly reassured by the fervor across all Dem voters.
What values are you talking about? Trumo absolutely will enforce traditional values-no LGBTQ+ rights. a modified form of Christianity will be the official religion. Women will stay home to raise the kids, clean the house and cook dinner for hubby. White men will once again be recognized as superior.
As I keep repeating, a longtime friend made a post on Facebook inviting everybody on her friends list to discuss the current situation. One woman said most of the facts in the post were wrong (she never explained which ones) and that Trump and Musk were doing a great job. USAID was at best a massive failure. We we were all deluded or morons for believing the lies manufactured and fed to us by the media.
MAGA people haven’t objected because Trump is doing what he promised to do while he was campaigning. He is acting on the promises that made them vote for him. He’ll deport all the dangerous illegals. He got rid of DEI, and Musk is getting rid of fraud and stupid libtard programs.
I just saw on the local news that Trump is shutting down the Department Of Education. This is a terrible thing, It is also another thing that made people vote for him.
I’v mentioned often my confusion over the idea of American “values.” It seems a lot of people lke to claim the US stands for a lot of good stuff that I don’t see clearly reflected in national policy - or a lot of individual actions.
I would go more fundamental: the five freedoms (religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition) enumerated in the First Amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
MAGA is attacking all of these. The founding principles of the country.
MAGA doesn’t think for a second that he is though. And there are more than enough moderate Republicans and centrist Democrats who are too busy dunking on “woke” to care either.
MAGA voters range from almost entirely not caring about those to actively opposing them.
Jesus Christ (as you read about him in the official Trump Bible) is the only way to heaven. We should teach about him in school. All other religions should be outlawed.
If you criticize Trump or Musk you are a stupid evil libtard.
This goes double for the press. Only Fox News tells the truth.
We should distrust any undesirables who are meeting in groups.
We don’t need the right of petition. Trump is without flaw and can never fail.
Oh, there are definitely some “Dem voters”, and in particular the wealthy ones who will continue to normalize the things Trump is doing for the foreseeable future so long as it doesn’t personally cripple them. But I suspect as time goes on and people who depend upon government services—which includes the upper middle class, small and medium business owners, veterans, et cetera—come to realize what dismantling the bureaucracy really means, they will become more agitated and realize how literally disenfranchised they have become. I’m especially anticipating a backlash by veterans—who, as a polity, are one of Trump’s most vocal and adherent bases—to eventually come to conclude how thoroughly screwed they have been by Trump et al.
Whether this means they will organize, politically or otherwise, into an effective opposition is another question entirely, and one of which I am not particularly optimistic in the foreseeable term as long as Fox News and ‘conservative’ pundits can continue to stir the pot of ‘culture wars’ or blame things on the party that is so out of power all most of them can do is wave little signs, lead incoherent chants, and write books nobody wants to read. I would not ordinarily discount the short memories of voters but I get the feeling that Trump & Co. are going to be around for a while remaking ‘American Democracy’ into an establishment in name only, which will be ensconced upon the psyche of the American public, albeit perhaps not soon enough to effect a turnabout. I am not at all convinced that there will be any coherent resistance to prevent descent into full-on autocracy (which I think my last paragraph of the post you responded to expresses) in the case of some inciting action which will make Americans more fearful and ready to embrace the authoritarianism that they have been flirting with for going on four decades regardless of how upset they may become.
I’ve been saying for over a decade how much of the American public has been primed for fascism, stemming directly back to Newt Gingrich’s “Contract with America” which had distinctive paternalistic overtones with a really ugly aftertaste, and many of those who did oppose this (which is, frankly, not all Democrats, and certainly not the ‘moderate’ wing that has moved over time to become as conservative in many ways as a Reagan Republican) still lived in denial that it was possible that the public would embrace or ignore a rising sentiment toward fascism. And now, here we are, with presidentially appointed advisors and executives with avowed Christian Nationalist sentiments, bearing tattoos of extremist right-wing symbology, and literally making Nazi-inspired arm motions in plain view, and a large polity of voters openly in favor of this behavior. Frankly, most people—even those who would express their disagreement—really care or will go to the trouble to speak out even if solicited to do so. So, I don’t think there is the distance between our viewpoints that you seem to believe that there is.
To answer the OP’s question, the most distinct point where decent people stopped caring was November 5th, 2024. Or at least, that’s when we became aware that a lot of “decent” people had stopped caring and maybe weren’t all that decent.
As far as the more complex question of when people who cared at that point will actually stop caring, it’s hard to know without mind-reading. I would be surprised if any of those people truly stopped caring or advocating entirely.
But there’s also a certain point of inevitability where it no longer makes sense, mentally or physically, to sustain the rage of a thousand suns. We live in a democracy (or did). A risk of democracy is that some dumb and/or greedy people will run it through the shredder when they get dumb or greedy enough. If that’s what the majority wants, that’s what they get. We can hate it and oppose it, but there’s no backing out now, the only way out of it is through it.