Atheism...

In My Humble Opinion
1

Alright, this could’ve gone into the Pit, but I’m really just looking to share my humble opinion, not get into a screaming match.

I roughly consider myself an agnostic. I don’t go to church, I don’t attend a mosque. I serve in really no organized religion. Yet… I do think that there may quite possibly be a higher power involved in the equation.

Now… one thing I personally cannot stand is militant* people of any religion. It seems clear enough that most people dislike Christian fundies. Obviously in light of recent events, people dislike Islamic fundies (= extremists, to be PC, I s’pose), but one that gets left outta the mix is ATHEIST fundies. That’s right, it’s the troop of people walking around doing exactly what they say they hate, and that’s cramming their beliefs/opinions where the sun don’t shine or where it isn’t invited. I know several people like this and it simply IRKS me to no end.

Allow me to explain myself. I do not like it when people attempt to force some kind of opinion on me. By the same token… you’re welcome to yours. If you don’t believe in God, that’s swell… hopefully you’ve got some intelligent thinking behind your decision. If you go to church everytime that the doors are open, 'gratulations! You’ve got a helluva lot more discipline that I ever will. HOWEVER… please feel free to keep your beliefs to-your-self.

It’s always struck me as humorous when people who “hate the way Christians force beliefs” find themselves going out of their way to antagonize even quiet religious groups. Why? Why, oh why, do you do this deed? It makes absolutely ZERO sense. Maybe my simple mind just fails to see the light. Maybe.

Another angle on this whole problem is, I suppose, my view on what atheism is. As per my definition… (feel free to correct me if I’m way off base, it would certainly shed light) an atheist is someone who renounces or does not believe in God, or any god(s) of any variety/persuasion. Now… why would you care in the LEAST if other people do? If God is mentioned on your money, why would you care? You don’t believe in him, anyways. If, by your belief, there is no God… then please, oh please-please, explain to me why you care where God is mentioned. Seriously. I want it explained to me why anyone should get their undergarments in a proverbial Gordian knot about something they DO NOT believe in.

I’m afraid I’m just gushing on and on… so I shall cease my ramblings here. If this is in the wrong forum, I apologize. If this ends up in the Pit… don’t be expecting alot of violent argument from me. I’ll discuss my opinion but I don’t like arguments that come to verbal thrashings ad hominem.

G’day.

~ARose

*militant is used by yours truly in this sense to convey an image of someone who goes out of their way to make sure you know about their opinion… and if possible (sometimes when not) take up their opinion as your own.

2

While I’m sure it’s unpopular, I agree.

On a side note, I caught George Carlin’s new HBO special tonight. What a sad little man.

3

Well, I’m an atheist and I must say, if you got people around you trying to
impress there no-belief on you; than that is funny if not ironic. The only time
I ever impress my belief on some one is if they ask or sometimes if feel I have
to defend myself becuase alot of christians seem to think— atheist=devil
worshiper— which I find insulting! (I’m sure other atheist posters will chime
in and agree with me on this one.) I consider myself to be a good person by any
standards and I never wish anything bad on anyone.

And as far as why would I care as to when and where god is mentioned? Well I
care out of respect for others. examples: If i’m in a court of law and am asked
to put my hand on a bible and swear to something I don’t believe in; that in my
op is not only misleading but is also disrespectful to those who do believe in
god. Another one is if I’m at some ones house for dinner and am asked to bow my
head for grace; I feel out of respect I should not bow my head becuase that
would be mocking there religion.

BTW. I would not argue the existance of a god or not. The only thing I would
argue is the fact that I dont know

[SUB]Sorry I had to cut and paste this[/sub]

4

First, atheism is not a religion, so we don’t have fundamentalists. There are no doubt some of our brethren who feel very strongly about the subject and speak emphatically when the subject arises however.

I’ve never heard of atheists going door to door asking people to renounce their current religion, nor passing out leaflets in public places, nor advertising on TV, nor creating entire television networks to peddle their brand of disbelief, nor starting wars to defend/seize holy lands, nor … and on and on and on.

As for the other issues. Let’s try a small example. If you had small children and sent them to a public school, would you be at all bothered if the school came up with a policy that the children would be have to kneel on a prayer mat and point their heads toward Mecca a couple times during the school day (I’m kinda assuming you’re not Muslim here). I suspect you’d be pretty PO’d about that, even if they said your kids didn’t have to participate if they don’t want to. I’m sure the other kids wouldn’t dream of teasing them about being different.

The ultimate point of this argument, which apparently your atheists acquaintances have failed to make clear is that in our society, religion is significant and has impact on our daily lives. When government is allowed to get involved in religion, then failing to be in the right religion can have significant personal consequences for individuals. That’s why we get PO’d at seemingly insignificant things like IGWT on money, not because it has any particular meaning in it’s own right, but because it signifies the fairly common belief that atheists are less deserving than others of equal rights in our country.

Did you know that the Boy Scouts of America require a statement of belief in some deity? They don’t care which one – Jehovah, Allah, Vishnu, Odin or any other of the myriad choices – but atheists are explicitly not eligible to be scouts. Did you know that our current president’s father, while running for president, made explicit statements that atheists are less deserving than others of being Americans. GHWB The younger Bush has likewise made it clear that he intends to try and make America even more christian leaning than it already is.

Is there discrimination in our country against members of minority religions? Almost certainly, even if it’s not overt. Is there discrimination against atheists? Yep. Will there be [more] if GWB makes the changes he’d like to? I’d bet on it. Do we get upset about that? You better believe it.

This is just an introduction to why atheists take these things seriously. The arguments you hear are not just intellectual exercises, but are about things that can have real impact on our lives.

5

I’m annoyed about God on the money because it says “In God we trust.” As an American, I am part of the “we”. I do no trust in God. I don’t like my governement saying all Americans trust in God, when many of us don’t. It’s either misrepresenation, or it’s an implication that if I don’t believe in God, I’m not part of the “we”: I’m less than American. Of course, certain American leaders don’t think I should be considered a real American citizen because of my religious beliefs. I think that’s flat wrong, and that’s why I object to any government-sanctioned religion–like prayer in schools, for example. Why should I care? If it’s a moment of silence, you don’t have to pray, right? Why should I care if other people are praying? Well, I care because it’s a foot in the door–it’s the goverment, ostensibly my government, saying that prayer is a good thing.

I think that the American government should represent all its people: Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, Heaven’s Gaters, whatever . . . and I think the best way to do that is for the government not to sanction religion–neither a specific religious sect (which is the current policy), nor theism in general (which is what I would prefer).

I don’t consider myself a militant atheist. I just do not lie about my beliefs or try to hide them. If someone asks me what church I go to, I tell them I’m an atheist. If someone asks me what I’m doing for Christmas, I tell them, “Oh, nothing special. We open our presents on the solstice.” If they want clarification, I’m happy to give it. If someone else introduces religion to the discussion, I am not shy about my own religious beliefs.

I try to keep in mind that, even though atheists do not have an organized religion with a core set of beliefs or a central leader, nonetheless, people will be judging all atheists based on what comes out of my mouth, so I should be careful to be calm and reasonable and respectful of other people’s beliefs.

However, it’s really freakin’ oppressive living in a society where most people take the liberty of assuming that you are a Christian unless you explicitly tell them otherwise–and that must be equally annoying for non-Christian theists, as well. Some people will say the most apallingly ignorant, thoughtless things about people of different religions, and they think nothing of insulting atheists. They think that if you don’t share some kind of a belief in God that you must be either an empty shell of a person or an evil satanist. It puts a chip on your shoulder, if you’re not careful, and it’s easy to lash out, even at religionists who don’t share that ignorant viewpoint.

I don’t buy the fact that I can’t be upset about religion because I don’t believe in God. In my humble opinion, not believing in God is the most reasonable stance (obviously, or I would believe in the most reasonable God instead) and it pains me to see people behaving unreasonably. It’s the same reason why I get upset over untested alternative medicines and psychic hotlines–at worst they’re dangerous, in general they’re a waste of money, and at best they encourage a pattern of irrational belief that I think leads to bad decision-making.

However, I’ve met a great many very thoughtful religionists, and it’s obviously wrong to say that all religion is equally unreasonable, so it’s safest to judge people on what they actually believe and why they believe it, and to find that out you have to listen and not just start attacking. But just like some Fundies just can’t tell you enough about Jesus, there are some atheists who can’t tell you enough about how unreasonable religion is. I can understand the points of view of both camps, but they can be more than a little obnoxious.

I guess I am pretty militant when it comes to creationism. That strikes close to home. Aside from spreading superstitious nonsense, young-earth creationism it paints me and my colleagues as either bumbling idiots or members of a great satanic conspiracy . . . so I hope I’ll be forgiven if that makes me so mad I can’t spit.

6

Hi, aramis!

Sorry to simulpost on George Bush the Elder’s comments–shoulda previewed.

But, think about it–who is watching what he says more carefully than a candidate for the highest office in the land? If George Bush thought nothing of telling a member of the press that he thinks that atheists aren’t real Americans, while campaigning, then what thoughts are other politicians keeping private?

7

I don’t want gods on my money for the same reason I don’t want a picture of Queen Elizabeth, or the words “Pi is exactly 3.14”. It’s not as innocuous as some people like to think to have falsehoods passed around, making billions of impressions yearly.

8

There are offensive atheists, just as there are offensive fundamentalists throughout the ideological spectrum. Then again, there are those who cannot understand following an incurious philosophy of such base brutality and vain self-righteous. There are those who see God, any god, as an excuse, who know that philosophies do not fill bellies and dogmas do not cure diseases. Some might even say that thanking God for miraculous cures and rescues denies the Herculean efforts of human doctors and saviors in some twisted ingratitude. There are those of us who know how little we know, and are not so insecure as to demand that even the barest bits about the nature of the universe can be guessed at. To project our own human conceptions on random universe and think this holds some sacred truth seems to some the height of arrogance. Such people, I think, will never understand why you don’t see the world the same way.

9

Hey guys. Been awhile since I checked in on my lil rambling… work, sleep, et cetera! At any rate, skimming over the answers, I feel that I might add some things.

First, I’m all about the separation of church and state. Just a glance over the European Dark Ages and you see what kind of feces hits the spinning blades when the Church is running around with as much power as the government. But… the separation that I’m talking about would be where the Church is involved in law-making or has some political power. I don’t feel my beliefs as an agnostic are infringed on if you say, “In God We Trust.” If people find comfort in God, then I say let them have it. It doesn’t really bother me. They can trust in Mrs Butterworth for all that I care. “In a woman-shaped syrup bottle we trust.” I do cede your points, I s’pose. All the reasoning seems good enough… it just, personally, still escapes my (apparently lazy) mind as to why any mention of any deity is so offensive.

Second, I guess my bottom complaint narrows down to people needing to keep their beliefs to themselves. I guess one could say that God on money (etc) infringes on beliefs… but I seem to be too laid back about these things. shrugs Whatever, then. My rant is over, my feeling past. Thanks for entertaining my notions of conversational ability.

Good day to you!

~ARose