From Foxes Book of Martyr’s
Can you explain exactly what that is? Is it just somebody who stood up for their faith under duress?
Again, I would have to hope that he wasn’t carrying a portable sincerit-o-meter. Other than that, no problem. It’s not as if he could actually make me believe anything differently.
A question for some of the Christians from one of the atheists:
Suppose the gunman were asking you to reproach or reject somebody else that you loved - say your spouse. Your spouse wouldn’t have to be God to know that you didn’t mean what you said, and your spouse probably would rather have you alive than dead. Would you still consider the words you were coerced to say to be a “betrayal?” If so, why? If not, why do you feel differently when you are being coerced to say that you reject God?
(BTW, Neurotik, isn’t the “St.” before Peter’s name a doctrinal guarantee that he’s in heaven?)
Still not a Christian, but…
God isn’t the whole issue here. Even if I believed He’d forgive me (and I guess I do, now that you mention it), I still have to maintain the honor of my people. I can’t have this asshole walking around claiming he’d broken a Jew, can I?
Besides, there are self-respect aspects to this whole affair I don’t even want to go into.
The above was spoken by St. Polycarp of Smyrna 1833 years ago today. I would like to think I am made of the same stuff as my patron, and would follow in his shoes. But I do have a bit of a streak of chicken in me.
Though if my expectations come to pass, I may have the chance to find out in a few years. And it will be self-proclaimed “Christians” who put me to the test.
I almost don’t want to do this, but :rolleyes:
It isn’t a matter of integrity to me, though. I would be happy to have someone running around saying, “I broke arl!” or “I broke an objectivist!” or “I broke a Discordian!” if it meant I was alive to hear it.
Next time, go with your instincts.
Your post said little about me, and quite a lot about you.
I’m agnostic. What’s the guy with the gun going to get me to say?
And since I don’t believe either option, I’ll have no difficulty in saying I do. It’s as much a lie either way.
As a Christian, I would like to believe I would face death without betraying my faith.
As a big ol’ chicken, I think honesty requires me to admit I’d probably say whatever the gunman wanted me to say to avoid being shot. I’d like to think otherwise and maybe I’m underestimating my personal courage, but I kind of doubt it.
DANIMAL –
Because the existence of a spouse or any other person standing before you is not an article of faith. You are noot denying that person’s very being if you repudiate them, nor are you denying something that is a personal foundation for your own life. Moreover, you do not owe the same allegiance to anyone – even your spouse – that you (not you personally, but a person of faith) likely feel you owe to the Lord. Would it be a “betrayal”? Sure. But it’s not the same sort of betrayal.
I believe that was his intent.
Indeed. Note the number of times I used “I.”
I stand corrected.
Though I still don’t like it when people roll their eyes at me, especially when I’d done nothing to provoke it.
Well, yes, that was directed at you, of course. I do find it terribly hard to believe that standing up for one’s principles in the face of life and death with a single person is a little bit excessive.
Damn context…of course I didn’t mean the rolleyes as harsh as it was, more like you were speaking from the stand that there was a whole movement associated with changing your mind, not a lone gunman trying to satisfy his own twisted desires.
I do find that a bit preposterous. However, I agree that in the face of continued pressure to disavow my beliefs(with no sight of recourse) I too would give my life for the cause.
As a christian, I would not betray my God for any reason. It happened in the Bible before Jesus was crucified, he was denied by diciples. I could not betray something I know. Not for anything or anyone.
I would say anything and everything that the nutcase wanted me to, without exception and without any hesitation, as long as it was just saying something, and not physically injuring someone. My principles take a back seat to saving my rear.
I’m an atheist, btw.
According to the RCC…but I’ve disagreed with the RCC before. I merely meant that I don’t consider myself special enough to know for sure that he is there…I just take the Church’s word for it. Not much of a difference, I’ll admit.
I could easily deny the existence of any gods and goddesses, with a gun pointed at my head. As Freyr said, whatever I say faced in a situation such as that doesn’t count.
I believe that my Deities want me to live for them, not die for them. I think that if I took a bullet because I refused to deny their existence, and met them face to face, they’d smack me upside the head. “You’ve got a family, you moron!” they’d say. “Kids! A husband! Now you’re dead, and they don’t have you. Faith is good, but fer cryin’ out loud, so is common sense! Geez! Haven’t you learned anything from us yet? Oh, and because you’re such a flaming idiot, we’re going to reincarnate you as a middle manager.”
He is a nutcase. He is all alone. He hates Christ. He wants me to deny Christ. I understand this guy. I can reach him. If I am to die, because I will affirm my Lord, then let me affirm him with my Heart, with love.
“My friend, if you don’t believe that Jesus lives, what do you gain by having me deny Him? I fear the power of your gun, but my words do not make a lord of anyone, or deny lordship to them. I have no power. Is there something that I have that you want? Take it. Would it not be better for me to affirm your worth, than to deny the worth of someone you don’t believe in? Let us put the matter of God aside, and deal with men, you and I. We shall seek what will make your life better. Could my death serve you as well as that?”
Triskadecamus -
On reading this thread, I will steal your quote if I am ever in the same situation (if I can remember it).
Podkayne -
A ‘confessor’ is just the technical term for someone who was threatened with death if he/she did not renounce Christ, and stood firm.