There has been a confluence of recent events that has raised this question in my mind. Firstly, I was channel-surfing this past weekend and came across a part of a movie which I assume was Ben Hur. Charleton Heston was standing before the Caesar, who was demanding his allegiance and that he foreswear his fealty to “this Jew who dared call himself a king.” Heston’s character (who I guess was Ben Hur) swore his allegiance to the emporer, but refused to put aside his faith for him. Caesar ordered him executed. Then Ben Hur’s wife came and stood beside him, telling the emporer to put her to death as well.
Later I was watching my two-week-old daughter sleep and contemplating Qadgop the Mercotan’s assertion that he would die for his kids.
And finally there is the fact of Sept. 11, and how every American has been shown that there exist in this world people who hate us unto death, merely because we live in this country and/or believe differently than they do.
The question all this raised is this. My faith is strong enough that I do not fear being killed because of it. But if I were told to renounce my faith and told that my family would be killed if I did not, well… What should I do? I don’t readily know of a passage of Scripture wherein I am given the moral authority to make martyrs of my wife and child. What could I do to spare my family, yet save my soul?
Good question, Tygr. I’m agnostic, I love my family, and I’m not scared of dying so much as I am scared of dying a horrible death. If I was told that my family would die because I refused to convert to X religion and renounce my agnostic views, then I’m not sure how I’d react. My knee-jerk reaction right now–not facing the reality of that type of situation–is to tell them FUCK OFF. Who are they to tell me what to believe and how to believe? My mind is my own, and I won’t sacrifice that for anyone or anything because I couldn’t live with myself if I did. Besides, how could I trust them? Even if I agreed to convert to their religion, they still might kill my family and/or me. They have no ethics and morals if they subscribe to a religion and a god that would advocate them torturing, killing, and forcing others through threats to subscribe to their faith in order to validate their beliefs.
But then I just look at history. This kind of scenario did happen to some of my African ancestors who were sold into slavery under the premise that they were savages and heathens, and they needed to be converted to Christianity. (I know that the Slave Trade was about economics primarily, but slave traders and slave holders justified the slave trade by saying they were trying to convert Africans to Christianity to help save their souls. For a good, yet subtle critique of Christianity and slavery, see Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass by Frederick Douglass. Look at the Appendix in particular, but the whole text will tell you something too. Another good source is Robert Hayden’s poem “Middle Passage.”) Anyway, some Africans said FUCK OFF and jumped off the slave ships to the sharks that were waiting for them, and some stayed alive and adopted their enslaver’s religion of Christianity, but they changed it subtly incorporating their own beliefs into it so that on the outside it looked like Christianity, but on the inside it was a complex mix of their culture’s beliefs and Christianity. So that’s how we get Voo Doo/Hoo Doo or Santeria to name two good examples. I guess if I were more rational, I’d opt for some of the more subversive tactics some of my ancestors did.
So your god wouldn’t, like, cut you some slack? Wheww - that’s cold. Look at our legal system: if I come to your house, hold a gun to your head, and force you to sign a contract, that’s not a valid contract. If He’s not going to smite the wicked, He should at least forgive the righteous who don’t want their families ripped by wild beasties.
It’s easy enough for me. Faced with a threat of death to my children, I’d be
Well, I’m a believer, but I’m also a weaselly rationalising type, so my weaselly rationalising would go something like:
You can’t compel belief. No matter what forms of religion you may follow, or what rules of behaviour you conform to, if you don’t truly believe, in your heart, then those forms and rules are merely empty gestures. Conversely, if you do believe, then no compulsion of behaviour can take that away from you; God knows what is in your heart.
So, if someone says to me, “Worship the Invisible Pink Unicorn or I sell your mother for dog food” - fine by me. I don’t have any right to make someone else give up their life for my beliefs, so, if I have to follow the forms of worshipping the Invisible Pink Unicorn, I’ll follow those forms. Because it doesn’t mean anything. Because, in my heart, I’ll still be a Christian, and I know it, and God knows it, and that’s all that matters.
Which doesn’t mean I wouldn’t try my damndest to get out of that situation - lies are bad, I do not want to be in the position of having to lie about my beliefs. But, if I couldn’t get out of that situation, that’s how I’d deal with it.
I believe you God would cut you some slack. First of all I do not knwo fo a God that wouldn’t. Maybe unless you worship satan or something like that. or Of course if you are OBL.
But you sir seem like a genuine man whom cares about values and most of all and more importantly you care about your family and your own blood. No God would punnish a man such as yourself for protecting his family, even if he is renouncing his faith in that God. It would be the evil ones who put you in that godawfull situation that would be punnished. Personally I was born and raised Catholic but I have not practiced any organized religion for ten years. There are simply too many things in the Catholic church that I disagree with. Also I believe more than anything, that God should be loved and not feared. who ever God is, weather she is a entity, or an idea, or the universe as we know it. God should be found in the love we have for ourselves as humans, and this sir is exactly what you have for yourself and your family…
But that begs an even more important question - would you sacrifice your life and your family for your post count?
I mean screw religion, that’s no biggie, I’d change in a sec.
But man, I’m working up my post count with stupid, pointless posts like this, and I’m not sure my family is worth all the
trouble to start over.
Actual the scriptures make it quite clear that you are not only entitled to make martyrs of your wife and family, you’re entitled to have them killed, raped, sodomised, beaten and sacrificed at your own hand for no better reason than that it saves you trouble. Basically as head of your household you have complete authority over the lives of your family.
In addition to the Abraham thing already quoted we have:
Judges 11 in which Jephthah sacrifices his own daughter in return for God’s favour in battle.
Genesis 19 in which Lot offers up his daughters to be raped to protect two complete strangers.
Judges 19 in which a man offers up his own daughter and his guest’s wife to be raped so that the guest won’t be. The would-be rapists refuse the offer, so the guest pushes his wife outside and locks the door. She is raped and beaten for hours and eventually staggers back to the house where here husband is safely sleeping. There she dies of massive internal injuries and exposure. He then proceeds to mutilate her corpse.
Tygr if I were a Christian or a Jew I’d have to conclude that this gives carte blanche to do with your wife and children as you see fit if it saves you from humiliation and pain, or even if it just wins you God’s favour in an important business deal.
So if the situation ever arises go for it. Offering your wife or daughters up for martyrdom is apparently one sure way of winning the Lord’s approval.
“I Pledge Alligiance to the Lamb” is Ray Boltz’s approach to the question of martyrdom where a man is portrayed (in the video) as being taken from his son to be executed for being a Christian and not renouncing his faith. I think I would verbally renounce God to save my family (no one can force you to believe or not to believe, only what you say), despite what church leaders say you should do. But I would act the part as much as possible to find the best way to get to the leader of people running this whole thing that forces people to “believe” like them. Then, at a key moment, I stab their leader in the heart. I’d probably be executed anyway, but at least I did some good in my last moments and probably saved thousands. FTR, my bible came with a New Testament, the part that has all the stuff about Jesus.
Reminds me of a story. The details are vague, but it goes something like this. A meek priest was under the misfortune of being at the sword of an evil warlord, who asked, “Do you wish to pledge your life to me?” Without ever saying a word, the priest went on to perform the most menial of tasks to the warlord for the next fifteen years. When the warlord died, the priest dug his grave and buried him. After making a prayer for the dead, the priest then spat on the grave and said, “No.”
The question all this raised is this. My faith is strong enough that I do not fear being killed because of it. But if I were told to renounce my faith and told that my family would be killed if I did not, well… What should I do?**
Speaking as a Neo-Pagan, I can’t see that any oath made under such duress would ever be taken as valid, either in a human court of law or before the Gods. I think intent is what needs to be considered here. Your intent would be to save you family, even at great cost to yourself. Any words you mouthed at the time would be utterly meaningless because there’s not true intent behind them.
Let’s say that in order to save your family, you have to curse (the J/C/I) God, piss on a Bible and other obscene things. And you do these things to save your family. When it would come time for your judgement, I think what would stand out most clearly is that you acted to save those that you loved most rather than the acts of defilement you committed.
Agreed… as a matter of fact abraham did not denounce his faith when his own God told him to Kill his son (I’m not sure where it is in the bible, sorry)And abraham was about to do it, but the lord saw his faith and stopped him. It was a test that’s all… Now I’m not saying that if Someone told u to Deny God and convert to a different religion that if you wouldn’t that God would say "OK boys good show! By the way dude! You passed the test! You Love me! " No it wouldn’t happen like that… But In reply to Phlosphr’s statements about God cutting you slack; He wouldn’t, theres no if ands or buts about it. God wants you to be wholely Devoted to him no matter what and if you can’t deal with that then you need to check what’s wrong. BUT god IS a forgiving God and I’m not saying that he wouldn’t forgive you for Denying him (after all peter did it 3 times in one night!) I’m just saying that To deny god would be to Sin… Therefore making it wrong and offensive to God. THink about it, This God was loving enough to lay HIS son’s life on the line for us, can’t we do the same? you gotta know what’s gonna happen and where they’re going (your family, etc.) before it happens. Witness, do what ever it takes to tell them about the love of christ but I’m telling you that you’re wrong when you say that it’s alright to Denounce Gods name in order to save a life I don’t care who they are or How close you are to them.
You could always offer your life insead anyways
Think about it…
Are you of the school that MUST fear God to worship God? Sorry but I don’t now, and will not ever, subscribe to that idea. I do not believe any all loving God would strike anyone down for defending his family. No way. Devotion to God is shown in many ways, but one of them does not include sacrificing your family…That was already done, do you think God did that so that we could string up our own sons on a cross and show our devotion to HIM. Sorry but I can not fear an all loving God to show my devotion.