Alright, so there’s a thread in which the OP asks “Gun is pointed at family. Convert or no?” The answers became a combination of “there’s no problem pretending to deny God/Jesus but on the inside not changing” or “Sure, because God is forgiving and so it’s not really a problem.”
I don’t think this goes far enough though. So yeah some people might do it because they think in the end they’ll still go to heaven, so it’s only a bodily sacrifice. What if it’s more than that though? What if you were going to do something that you were absolutely certain would damn you to hell for eternity? Wouldn’t do it just to save lives? How about to save souls? Would you damn yourself to hell so that your closest relatives/friends would be guarunteed acceptance in heaven? How about so that the entire human race would be accepted? How about the entire human race for the rest of our existence?
Seems obvious that sacrifice in the physical sense is no sacrifice at all if you believe in life after death. So then what about REAL sacrifice? What factors would go into your decision about whether or not it was “worth it” to avoid all possibility of redemption to help others?
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*Originally posted by Kaje *
Seems obvious that sacrifice in the physical sense is no sacrifice at all if you believe in life after death
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I think you’ve got a problem Kaje. If a Christian believed that she wouldn’t have any reason to appreciate Jesus’ death, since he had incontrivertible proof of his own ressurrection (it was written down thousands of years beforehand.) By your logic Jesus made no sacrifice at all and as such their are no Christians.
I assume most Christians beleive that a sacrifice is still a sacrifice even if the afterlife is assured.
Alright. I won’t further that part of the argument cause it’s not at all what I’m interested in. Just focus on the “would you go to hell others?” part. That’s probably what I should have made the thread title anyway.
Well I don’t beleive in hell as you see it (eternal damnation is right out) but here’s my take.
God is just.
God created Hell.
God decides who goes to Hell.
The hypothetical deal would have to be struck with God since Satan hasn’t got the power to let people out of hell/into heaven. He’s a prisoner there too.
The deal isn’t fair because my torment doesn’t make other’s pay for their sins. The deal isn’t just.
God is just so God wouldn’t allow the deal.
I really can’t imagine this scenario. Any version of hell has to be based on an all-knowing and just God and payment for sins. This hypothetical destroys precludes all that. I just can’t imagine what this hell would be like.
Basically I wouldn’t do it because it’s unfair and illogical. Fear plays a large part but at the end of the day I couldn’t garauntee that the deal would be kept. I’d be aiding and abetting the worst sorts of criminals and perverting the course of justice. Any system that would allow that has no honour and I wouldn’t trust them to keep their deal to let everyone else go. They get me and then grab all the sinners anyway. They don’t just punish people for fun, they do it for bizarre reasons and presumably enjoy it.
In short the whole scenario requires the rejection of any level of certainty on anything and is illogical. It’s asking me if I’d describe what an invisible square circle looks like to save my family. I can’t do it, I can’t comprehend either the process or the conseequences beyond the proviso that my eternal torment is garaunteed so I’d have to say no. It’s infinite loss or infinite uncertainty. Anyone who agree is on a hiding to nothing.
I would choose not to have eternal damnation in Hell.
I would hope that I would have the strength to never denounce my faith for any reason.
To me, Hell is a very real place, and we could not even begin to comprehend suffering as it is in Hell.
I would beg someone not to do it for me. I would be sad for them and think them very foolish.
I’ve always had and idea, just an idea. Have you ever thought of the possibility that God knows its unjust and unfair and maybe not right or maybe, just maybe that he doesn’t give a damn…
The miracle I would think is in the fact that there is always a way to him, and I’m not talking about christianity or anything related. I’m talking about anyway way possible albeit christianity or any eastern, western and far eastern way of life/religion or native american for that matter.
Well Memnojokasel I can’t say I understand most of what you just wrote (been a long night has it), but I think I see what you’re getting at.
You’re a newbie so you probbaly don’t realise I’m not a Christian. I was raised one and so have a habit of posting on threads like this from a Christian perspective.
Yeah I’ve considered other options and come to the realisation God doesn’t give a damn and the system is just despite this.
I too, have been raised christian (from a pastoral family to make it worse) and have found and studied many religions, and found that they are all really valid. It’s because they all pretty much have to do with how you treat your fellow man that I mention them.
It’s not that It’s been a long night, I really don’t belive that. I just had the idea that the unfairness would have something to do with motivation. Oh, and the name; I just made it up a long time ago, I use it for gaming so why not online to? No one else could come up with it.
The scenario I pictured didn’t really involve the devil. I’m agnostic but if I believed in God hell would not need to involve the devil in any way, except that he/she/it would presumably be there. That said, leme try to rephrase my question/the issue again, in maybe a little different context:
If you are Christian, is the entire point of life, without exception, to “be with God”/go to heaven? The relationships you might develop with other people, the tribulations of your life…are they all just steps in that solitary goal? If this is the case, is there anything else in your life that you can see as “overriding” this directive? I know in buddhism, for example (or at least certain brands thereof), there are the occasional people just shy of enlightenment, who could reach nirvana and thus escape the cycle of reincarnation, but instead choose to forfeit that so that they may continually be reincarnated and help other people move along their way to said enlightenment. This seems to be a bold act, and I wonder if there is an analog in other religions. A martyr just doesn’t cut it, because he’s at least pretty sure that even those his physical body is about to be mutilated, he’s going to be with God. So is there anyone who is truly selfless enough to forfeit any shot at heaven so that those around him may benefit? This isn’t really a “guy on the street with a gun” scenario, since that doesn’t carry with it any real authority.
I can just picture a story in the bible (much like the abraham and son one) where God wants to test the faith of some poor soul, and tells him “If you do this deed, your son who was otherwise damned will go to heaven, and you who was otherwise bound for heaven will go to hell”. Problem is, I cant really see the outcome. Would poor [insert archaic hebrew name here], after fighting with his conscience, decide that he still must obey God?
I can almost see a reverse Inferno type deal. God says he’ll go to hell, he thinks he might still have to do it. Then Virgil comes along and says “are you for real? do you have ANY idea how much hell would suck? Leme give you a little tour…” And ultimately make some choice? I can even see the original outcome in which he still chooses hell and is damned, but then later on some other church panel or just another poet decides this won’t do and edits the end (like Job). Ah the possibilities… I think i’ll have to flesh out such a story one of these days.
How come my clarifications always end up longer than the original statement?
Mathew 27-46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I don’t think the bible explains any more, but it gives the impression Jesus wasn’t thinking “Not long now and I’ll be back in heaven; don’t know what the fuss is about”
I think it says that God comes before anything else, but I haven’t got time to dig up a chaoter and verse, so I’m really sorry, and ignore that unless someone else does. Of course almost everyone (which may or may not include Jesus) will break and say anything eventually under appropriate threats, even if they know it’s OK if they can hold out long enough.
The army takes over your state, and a military dictatorship is set up. Free speech is no longer permitted, and any criticism of the government is punishable by death or imprisonment (without trial.) You think this could never happen? It’s the status quo in many, many countries.
So, do you give up your cherished belief in free speech, complying with might-makes-right? or do you resist?
Same scenario, but gets the “reward in heaven” or “what does God really want” out of the formula.
You still have a god acting unjustly, you still have unjust, evil people getting a ‘get out of Hell free’ card and you are helping to pervert the course of justice. You still have an invisible, green, square circle. As far as I’m concened the question doesn’t make any sense. Trust a God you have to admit is no longer just and honest, in return for a promise that he’ll let someone else go, and you get burned forever in a hell whose purpose is no longer what that same God says it is. It’s no longer there to punish sinners/unbelievers because you’re in it. So why does it exist? Since the very test denies any justice you could just as logically decide not to do it and let people get assigned to random afterlives. Your son may be a sinner, but since there’s no ultimate justice he’s just a likely to end up in hll as heaven isn’t he? Why trust this entity, it isn’t the Christian God, or if it is he’s a liar and sadist.
Like I said earlier you have infinite uncertainty as to the reliability and honesty of the entity proposing the bargain, all you do know is that you will have infinite suffering if you agree.
Just for the record: In that passage, Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 in the Old Testament. Since he was saying it in Aramaic, the language he would’ve been brought up speaking as a child, some scholars have speculated that the author of Matthew was implying that, in the midst of his suffering, Jesus was reaching back to his childhood memories to console himself.
I get the feeling the question isn’t really meant to deal with the significance of Heaven and hell (as Gaspode mentioned, you can’t trade places with people in hell because those that go to hell supposedly deserve to be there, and those that don’t, don’t; subverting that would change the nature and meaning of Heaven and hell), but more to ask the question, “Would you give up living in Heaven forever with God, and being united with Him–and consequently, burn forever and ever in hell if that’s what you believe hell is like–for the sake of your loved ones (who presumably wouldn’t make it on their own)?” (Sorry Kaje if this is not actually what you intended.) Kind of like asking, “Which is more important: that you don’t suffer for eternity in hell, or that they don’t?”
I think that no matter how much I loved my family, if I’d actually made the choice to go to hell for them and was going through it, I would renounce my decision once I was there. Not that I should, but just in the practical sense, I think I would be overwhelmed by the desire to get out of there, and it would probably supercede anything (as in 1984).
I would take that as a given. But would I make the decision to go in the first place? I think that at least part of the reason that this is so tough is that I would feel as if I was acting supremely selfishly by condemning a family that loved me to hell because I didn’t want to go. But would that really be the case? I mean, if they were destined to go to hell based on their own merits and I was destined not to based on mine, would it still be selfish for me to let them go? Even if it would be selfish, does that mean it would not be the right thing to do?
It’s fortunate that I don’t believe I’m actually faced with this question, but if I were, I think that if our fates were actually deserved, I would probably not intervene myself. (Man, that’s a hard conclusion to come to.) Or maybe I would, but it wouldn’t be a rational thing; it would be more like one of those decisions you know is wrong at the time but, ironically, you decide to let the “devil take the consequences.” If the fates were not deserved, however, that’s another question entirely… what if I didn’t deserve to go to hell, but they didn’t either, and there are more of them than me… not to mention the fact that I love them? Maybe an objective person would choose then to save the majority of people… and hopefully I would be able to think objectively enough to make that choice.
Well then that’s simple. Were I a Christiam I’d have to conclude that God has it all worked out, that he is fair and just and never does anything without a purpose. I could never presume to change God’s will. Therefore if it were God’s will that my family go to hell I’d not only have to let them, the Bible makes it quite clear I couldn’t prevent it, for what man can stand in the way of God. If it were the will of God that they not go to hell then they will not go hell no matter what my actions may be.
Basically I can’t see how a Christian (or a Jew or a Moslem or …) could ever imagie herself in a position where she beleives he has a better understanding of what should happen than God. The probelm with the hypothetical is that my action will result in a change that can only be made by the direct action of God. No matter what the nature of Hell only he decides who goes and who stays. This isn’t like a gunman holding a gun at your head. It’s a loved, intelligent and completely trusted and trustworthy individual asking us to make a choice. When I was was a Christian I would have made a choice based entirely upon the two baic principals ‘love God’ and ‘Love thy neighbour’ with no thought of the consequences. This is God asking me to make the choice and my faith is such that I know that the outcome will be just so long as I love him.
I’d demonstrate my love for my family by sacrificing myself without a moments hesitation, trusting that God wasn’t lieing when he said ‘As you judge so will you be judged’. If this is God he’ll judge me the same way, ie he will sacrifice himself to save me from hell, despite my deserving to be there. Come to think of it I seem to remember reading somewhere that he did just that. Seen in that light Kaje it’s an interesting thought excersise and has let me see the big Christian transaction in slightly different light.
If I doubt for a second that this is God, well I’ve discussed that above. I guess it all hinges on whether we know this is God.