I know the subject has come up before, but not in this particular way, afaik.
I just came from service at a local Episcopal church, and there was a guest speaker for Veteran’s Day services that happened to be a retired Lt. Colonel. He spoke on the phrase “There are no atheists in foxholes” and said that most people misunderstand it to mean that, under pressure on the front lines, atheists will seek out God. He preached that the real meaning was that atheists almost never make it to the front line because they lack what it takes to make sacrifices of that sort. As “proof” of this, he told us that he visited an atheist website that catered to servicemen, and he bemoaned the fact that he couldn’t find one person on that site that had earned so much as a Silver Star. Of course he didn’t name the website he visited, so there is no way to check up. My personal opinion is that admitting that you were an atheist during WW2 would have been a dangerous thing to do and probably would have killed your career, and the same is true today, but probably less so.
Is there a fault in the atheist psyche that stops them from making battlefield sacrifices, or is the fault in the military itself for creating an atmosphere that atheists to hide their true nature?
If anything, I’d say there’s a fault in the theist psyche, caused by the belief they’re sacrificing less than they really are. Would there be as many suicide bombers if they knew they were dooming themselves to oblivion instead of going to paradise?
Quite possibly - certainly there have been stories of this sort of harassment.
Numerous 20th century Communist nations took part in numerous wars,
and fielded tens of millions of brave soldiers, literally tens of millions,
millions of whom died for their cause.
Although they were not all atheists, it is reasonable to assume that many were,
and that they remained so at the moment of death.
What does belief in God have to do with making sacrifices to save your brothers? God is a father figure. I think boot camp/service in general is designed to indoctrinate soldiers into this kind of familial thinking and God is not necessary for that.
There is so much poor thinking in the Lt. Colonel’s statements that it only serves the the purpose that it intends to do: promote mistrust of atheists in religious people.
I’d say that belief is in fact very helpful for getting through times of crisis. It doesn’t have to be belief in God, of course. It can be belief in yourself, in your friends, in humanity, in your cause, or anything else. It could be hate - hate is also a form of belief.
Maybe a more accurate saying would be “there are no nihilists in foxholes”.
Atheists in this model would be the moochers, theists would be the naive sacrificers. That works well enough as long as there are safeguards to prevent the growing atheist population from destabilizing the entire game. His wording (or the OP’s paraphrase) doesn’t make much sense though. You don’t sacrifice to appear on the front lines. Sacrificing is what you do after you’re already on the front lines which sends you under the ground or a to a hospital. Now maybe he’s specifically talking about modern volunteer armies, but for most of human history you didn’t get much of a say in this. The front line would come to you.
I think seeing what war’s all about is a great way to turn the average person into a nihilist.
You know, the first time a little kid shot at me, I was pretty shocked. By the end of that 15 months, I’d pretty well say I was a nihilist. I’ve recovered from it since then, but impe, your statement is pretty accurate.
Oh yeah… btw, if you aren’t an officer, a silver star, hell a BRONZE star, is pretty hard to come by. I personally know one enlisted guy who got the silver star. If the story wasn’t documented, nobody would believe it. Silver stars are rare, if you aren’t an officer, that is.
He was speaking in a church, a safe place to put down atheists usually.
But he was wrong, Most of us that served and found themselves on the front line were there by others choices not our own. I went where I was told and did what I had to do, never once calling upon god to help me or anyone else. You survive through training and luck, sometimes just luck. A lot of people hae told me god was on my side even if I didn’t believe in him. I guess they didn’t believe in luck or believe god wanted a lot of dead christians.
One of my good buddies and a family friend joined the Marines and is currently in Afgahnistan. Despite coming from a very conservative part of the US he is an outspoken atheist. Coming from west Michigan ( I call it the bible belt of the north) he has clearly been exposed to Christian beliefs but has simply rejected them. He joined the Marines during wartime practically assuring that he would see frontline combat. I find the Lt Colonels comments insulting. I never served, so I dont know how overtly religous the service currently is but I know that when he was preparing his paperwork for the potential handling of his body the Marines knew that he wanted an atheist service.
How far back does that saying go? It would be interesting to know the histoical context in which it originated.
(and if foxes are not atheists, I’m pretty sure they aren’t Catholics since I never saw them at any of the Friday fish fries when I lived in Wisconsin)
He made up that definition to suit his own prejudices. “There are no atheists in foxholes” has always been interpreted as meaning that at life-threatening moments people will seek out God.
That has always seemed to me a dubious recommendation for religious faith, if you’ve got to be threatened with imminent death to embrace religion, however temporarily.
By the way, Ted Williams was said to be an atheist (according to teammate Johnny Pesky) and it’d be interesting to see if that Lt. Colonel would argue that Williams did not make sacrifices, and risk his life in service of his country in WWII and the Korean War.
I would say he’s more typically misinformed about what atheists (don’t) believe in, who they are, and how prevalent (but quiet) they are in society.
I think it would be more accurate to say that there are few outspoken atheists in the military, particularly in the past, because they were not tolerated there.
It’s a bit like if you had a club that did good works, akin to the Lion’s club or something, but this strongly discouraged Asians from joining. Then, you came up with the statement that Asians are not good citizens, because they are not doing good works with your club. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.