Wait, did this discussion shift from me to Gum, or are you still responding to my statement? If you want clarification on my statement, just let me know. Or if I am just being paranoid about thinking people are talking about me :eek: uh, I guess ah, that’s fine too 
Your definition of being a “critical thinker” would also rule out acceptance of any untested theories of economics, politics, etc. You would have to rule out anything that you have not determined the reality of for yourself - if you have never been to the Taj Mahal, its existence is just as realistic as a leprechaun to you, right?
I’m sorry, but I disagree with your contention that “religion means that you are not a critical thinker” - most of the greatest “critical thinkers” in history have been religious. One does not rule out the other, despite your most fervent prayers to the contrary.
I can accept that something exists that can not be seen, touched, or otherwise physically determined.
Lastly, the application of scientific principal to philosophy and metaphysics just makes you look foolish. I won’t get into another “how can something exist if I can’t see it” debate, because that never ends, but I WILL contend your argument that every religious person that is and ever was on this planet was incapable of critical thinking, intelligent discourse, and otherwise being a rational person.
Frankly, that argument is stupid.
I suppose I am one of the Dopers who also finds this thread somewhat sad. Most atheists I’ve known and loved have been pretty tolerant of others’ beliefs. Not here, I suppose
Now that I’ve made everyone run away by saying that, I’d like to share my ex-wife’s experience to the two people still reading. My ex-MIL and FIL were two quite outspoken atheists. (Indeed, when we got married, it was the first time my ex-FIL ever set foot in a church, and he had to be talked into going to his own daughter’s wedding because of it.) When my ex was a teenager, she started, shall we say, experimenting with Christianity. Her parents were beyond dismissive, and started nagging her to “give up this nonsense.” All that accomplished was to cause my ex, in her words, to rebel by becoming “a raging evangelical.” She ended up getting involved with a fundamentalist church group that, in her own estimation, really damaged her.
The sad thing was that, given to her own devices, I don’t think she would have ever been a Christian at all. She certainly didn’t believe that the Bible was literally true, and by the time I met her, she was going to church largely for the social aspects. I think that if, when she started going to church, her parents had just said “Humph, that’s nice,” she would have stopped going in a month or less. But once her parents started fighting her on it, she couldn’t back down in her own mind–it would have been a capitulation for her, and she was too headstrong, like a lot of teenagers are, to do that.
I would reckon that some atheists here have grown up in households where their beliefs or lack of same were mocked or worse. Why, then, would you do the same to your own children?
Sure. I am more than willing to recognize that Christianity is not a monolithic system, even if the fundie atheists aren’t.
Would I be mad? Hell yes I’d be mad. I don’t have kids yet, but if this were to happen, I would forbid contact with any friends or family members whose questionable beliefs were contaminating my child’s worldview. I would punish the child for believing incorrectly. And if this foolish belief in a supernatural deity persisted, I would send the child to a military-style atheist re-education camp in order to have all of that magical twaddle forcibly crushed from the kid’s mind. I am absolutely right about the way the world works, and I will tolerate no deviation from this in my family.
The above, of course, is sarcastic satire. The fact that there are no military-style atheist re-education camps says great volumes about what separates my philosophy from the faithful, in my opinion.
The real answer is that I might be disappointed, but I would not attempt to impose my views on my kid at all. Faith is a personal decision, and given my utter loathing for religious people who attempt to force their beliefs wholesale on myself and others (making no distinction between the useful and enlightened elements vs the ignorant and backward superstitious stuff; it’s always a package deal), I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t allow my kid the same emotional and intellectual space to make an individual choice that I am demanding for myself.
That being said, I will be completely up-front with my kid about what I believe and why I believe as I do. I will do a global review of religion in general, pointing out that when you set them all side by side, it becomes clear that they all have major things in common which appear to be based more in a human need for security and comfort, a defense against the Great Unanswerables, than in any rational system of legitimately received wisdom handed down from above. I will talk about how humans are perfectly willing to buy into and believe utter bullshit if it’s emotionally satisfying in some way (consider the people who resent having their cherished urban legends punctured by unpleasant but undeniable facts and who accuse you of “ruining a good story”), and how a sufficiently powerful narrative can take on a life of its own in people’s minds (e.g. the people who with varying degrees of seriousness want to mark “Jedi” for their religion of choice).
And yet, despite all of that, despite how a reading of the available evidence has led me to decide that rejecting any and all supernatural influences and agents is not just the most reasonable but the only reasonable conclusion, I will still be honest enough to say that it’s one of those things that nobody can ever really know absolutely for certain what the truth is. The only thing I will ask is that whatever the kid decides to do, it be a thinking decision, and I’ll leave it at that. Which means that if the kid decides to pursue religion as a poke in the parental eye, the kid will be disappointed to find it has little effect on me (and will be more likely to abandon it, if that’s the primary motivation).
Even so, while giving the kid all the room in the world to figure this out for him or herself, I will be absolutely firm on one area: If you try to become an evangelist for young-earth creationism or an anti-homosexual agenda, i.e. if you try to go beyond simply believing silly things and move into aggressive recruitment, that will be unacceptable. Inside your own head is your own territory, and you can landscape it however you like. But try to plant kudzu on someone else’s lawn, and I’m breaking out the Agent Orange.
Does this answer your question?
I’d appreciate it when people would read my posts and not think for me.
posted by Metacom
WTF? As far as I know there are a LOT of books, filled with tales which people believe to be true. The Quoran, Talmud, Bible, Mein Kampf and Mao’s little red book. To name a few.
Even that doesn’t cover religion. One can believe in the stapler on one’s desk. I wouldn’t mind my kid believing in any of the above. Like I said; He’ll grow out of it.
Zagadka
See above. This hard atheïst doesn’t.
But I promised myself not to debate with some, so: bye 
To be fair, most of the posters here are immersed in a Christian-dominated culture. As an exception to this observation, I can state that when I talk about religion this, religion that… I’m usually referring to Fundamentalist Judaism (which is the “fundie” element of the culture in which I am immersed).
In other words, I don’t think atheists are trashing on Chritianity per se, but on the most important religion in their immediate experience - which most often happens to be Christianity.
This is not an endorsement or rebuttal of this attitude - just a clarification of what I feel it is. As to the OP - I’ve made my opinion clear already in an earlier post.
Dani
If anyone is still on the train:
Atheist Dopers, how would you feel if your kid became a deist? (Someone who believes that some kind of intelligent entity created the universe, then walked away. Not God, or Jebus, or any other figure identified with a world religion. Just “something.”)
Merely because you’re addressing a mosty American audience, and so Christianity is the default religion we don’t believe in. I have no problem with religion sas long as it sticks to helpful precepts like “Love your neighbor” and “Let God’s love be your witness to others.” However, if your religion consists mostly of preaching hatred toward nonbelievers, bombing gay bars and abortion clinics, or crashing airplanes into skyscrapers, then we’re going to have a problem.
As for any hypothetical kids, if they became religious, I really wouldn’t care as long as they didn’t become pre-Trib Rapture fundie loons.
So, your definition of “religion” is the Abrahamic religions + Nazism and Communism?
I don’t presume to own my children (though I’m not sure the reciprocal is true).
Granted. But it is scary how much blind hatred and misconceived anger at religion in general.
It seems to me that the general atheist view of religion is that it is an organized cult out to indoctrinate people and force them to a single-minded line of thinking.
While there may or may not be some sects of some religions that DO try to do this, these are people who are shunned by most people who practice religion, who do it out of love and a sense of self. It just pains me to see so many people so horribly close minded about the subject, and so willing to force their children into their own belief structure.
Soft atheist here, not a father.
When I was thirteen, I made my own religious decisions, and stood up to my parents to enforce them. I like to think I wouldn’t force my own kids to fight me over religion.
Instead, I hope to raise kids to respect other folks’ belief systems while maintaining a very healthy skepticism. If my kids want to explore Young Earth Creationism, I’ll definitely let them; heck, I’ll buy 'em some books by Richard Dawkins if they want. I’ll also read the same books, though, and ask them pointed questions over the dinner table. It’s the same thing I’d do if my kids became interested in joining the army, or in joining ECK, or in doing anything else that was contrary to my views.
Daniel
All religions are con games. Every religion ever invented by mankind from the dawn of time forward has been a con game. There isn’t any of this “I agree except mine really isn’t” stuff. If it’s an organized religion, it’s a con.
Yeah. And it’s also a little disheartening to read comments like “mentally ill” or “deluded” when referring to religious belief. As a Christian, it never would cross my mind to think such things about those who do not share my beliefs. As long as they weren’t being obnoxious or trying to oppress or hurt other people, I’d take their beliefs as their beliefs.
Of course some of these expressed sentiments are nothing new, but when I think about it some more, I guess that means that these people (who make such statements) think that Dopers like Polycarp and Tris are mentally ill or deluded or not choosing “intelligent thought.”
Nice caveat at the end there.
Attitudes like this reflect how atheists think, and reflect how sad it is that we’ve lost the ability to be free thinkers.
As a solo practicioner, I would like to know, Cloth, who is conning me? Whose ideology am I parroting? What force is funneling my money?
For people who scream their status as “critical thinkers,” you certainly do bandy about the words “all religion” and “mentally ill” pretty freely. That is not symbolic of critical thinking - that is symbolic of prejudice, angst, and ignorance.
I find myself in such strange company about this. While fundamentally and traditionally at odds with Christianity, at the very least, I respect the Christians’ right to believe in it.
While some Christians may be distasteful to me, and those are frequently the ones who piss off the atheists so much that they resort to blind angst against religion in general, I recognize that the vast majority of true Christians are sane, reasonable, intelligent people who feel something on a spiritual level.
Then there are the ones who never go to church - they are socially Christian, but not religiously.
As a parent, I would encourage my children to look at religion (and everything else) from every angle possible. I’ll drive them to a church, mosque, temple, or whatever they want to see. If they find something fulfilling, great! If they don’t feel anything, that’s OK, too - as long as they know enough to respect other people’s choices, and be educated about other people’s religions and cultures. That is, after all, what it is about, and if they can take whatever goodness they can from religion, that’s excellent.
I’m damn grateful my parents let me experiment with religion. I want to return the favor.
Religion isn’t about spreading your ideas - though some try to do so with excessive force - it is about love, goodwill, and charity. Self discovery. Exploring the world beyond your physical being.
Can it be proved to exist? Nope. Is it all fantasy? Possibly. Can you take something good from it? Certainly, if you open your heart and your mind.
In the end - so bloody what if I believe in a mystical flying pixie, if it helps me understand myself better, love my fellow man more, and makes me happier? Why do YOU have to go out of YOUR way to call “mentally ill (technically true in my case, but that is a technicality)” and “lacking critical thinking” and “incapable of intelligent thought”?
How is following a religious Pied Piper any different than following a political, economic, or social movement?
Personally, whenever I find something that I don’t understand or agree with, I study it and try to see what it has to it. This is why I majored in Slavic Cultures, and ended up a Slavophile with deep interest in Central Asia. It can lead you to wonderful places - you just have to not be prejudiced against everything you disblieve in.
I think Andy Kaufman said it best: the only thing that seperates us from the animals is mindless superstition and pointless ritual. If my theoretical kid wants to believe in some form of religion, fine (with a sigh), but please don’t let him subject me to nonsense in the process.
I’m reasonably certain this was just a poor turn of phrase, but I plan to challenge my kids weather they take interests contrary to my views or in line with my views. I tend to believe that having “daddy thinks this is good” is as poor a reason for doing something or holding a viewpoint as “the bible says so.” I encourage my children(four, soon to be five) to try different things than daddy does, not because I think those are better than my views, but because they aren’t me. These things may be better for them in some way I can’t conceive of because of the differences in who we are. I’d like to encourage self-exploration, even if that means they end up doing things I would never(EVER) consider for myself. Perhaps especially in that case.
Enjoy,
Steven
How is it that you can read all the posts in this thread that make it entirely clear that this is not how all atheists think, including my very long one not too far above yours, and yet manage to turn around and make a ridiculously broad assertion like this? I await either a retraction or a significant modification of your statement.