Isn’t that just saying that some people are assholes and some of those are atheists? The same holds true for theists. One difference, however, is that there are religious institutions whose beliefs hold great sway over public policy. There are no significant institutions to promote atheism.
I don’t care if someone is a theist as long as they don’t try and convince me, or put their prayers in my schools, or use it as a way to justify repressive laws. Most of the people I know are theists of one sort or another, and most of them are really nice.
Remember, this thread started out as a pitting of atheists because they are arrogant enough to not believe in god.
You have only proved that there are no visible elves on the moon that require air to breathe. That is just one of many types of elves that might exist. It is arrogant of you to say that none of those types of elves can exist. For the moment I’ll stay agelvish.
Nope. This thread was started by an atheist–ie, me–calling out other atheists for claiming they “Know the Truth”, and that atheists are superior to theists by virtue of non-belief.
A child’s basis for believing in Santa is grown-ups telling him so. An atheist’s basis for lack of belief is rational scrutiny of the evidence. Well, usually; my stepdad is an atheist because during the partition of British India he watched half a million people (not all of them, obviously) killed in the name of one god or another as a fourteen-year-old boy, and concluded that even if god existed he didn’t want anything to do with him.
Yes, knowing that Religious belief is problematic, and therefore wanting to fight it. That’s what gets me thought the night.
[sub]Actually I couldn’t care less. But posting on message boards passes the time[/sub]
We have a reasonable confidence that there are no elves on the moon, but we can’t absolutely PROVE it. There are plenty of craters we haven’t looked in (most of them actually) and some of those may harbor elves. And there are many different types of elves that may currently be undetectable to us – they may be very small, or very clever at hiding, or even invisible. And we’re not talking about “life as we know it”. We’re talking about elves!
By claiming that there are no elves on the moon you’re merely acting arrogant and superior. The question is still open, and, in fact, may be unanswerable. The only intellectually honest position is to acknowledge that both sides have come to their beliefs honestly and agree to disagree.
The fact that evil is done in the name of organized religion is a travesty. But the inability to differentiate between those evils, and the belief in a god itself, shows sloppy thinking. If you want to condemn those who justify denying homosexuals equal rights, who kill in the name of holy lands, or wage war in the name of their gods, I’ll be right there with you. But at least recognize there is a huge difference between organized religion and belief in god.
Just to expand on the “religion for comfort” thing. I’m not sure I get what this is about. I know that my friends who are believers suffered enormously when their loved ones died, just as I suffered enormously when mine did. Where’s the comfort? I hear it all the time…believers find comfort in their belief. I don’t believe they feel any less discomfort than I do. Grief and longing are universal feelings, as far as I know. Both these emotions subside little by little, until they are something we keep in an inner-most locket for the most part. Would anyone care to comment?
To begin with some atheists resent proselytizing or being harangued; we don’t push our lack of belief on theists and feel that such consideration should be mutual. To each their own beliefs or lack thereof. I don’t actively try and get believers to give up what I consider to be an irrational belief, but I don’t really appreciate having my time wasted by groups of roving Christians trying to convert me, either.
I’m sure there are also those who consider themselves intellectually superior for having the clarity of thought to deny the existence of God, who may feel that they need to open the eyes of believers who they see as delusional. Like fundies are to normal religious folk though, these are the vocal minority of atheists the rest of us would prefer not to be associated with, even if only because their arguments tend to be more on the order of personal attacks than attempts at logical discourse.
I think there are many positive effects of religion. The belief in an afterlife can be comforting, but I think even more important are the support system supplied by churches, and the rituals surrounding death that help people reach closure. Imagine if everyone had to start from scratch to know what to do when a loved one died. I was truly moved and comforted by my FIL’s funeral service even though I did not accept the back story of the religion on which it was based.
The comfort for them I think comes from the belief that they have gone to a better place, they are with God and/or other loved ones who have passed, and so on. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they hurt any less or for any lesser length of time, only that they have a belief system that they can cling to that assures them that those who die are in good hands, that they will always be “with” them in some metaphysical form, etc.
I think also there is the perception from some theists, possibly even subconsciously, that atheists, having no belief system to offer them succor in times of grief, must suffer more for not being able to attach meaning or reason to tragic events.
I don’t like been proselytiing or being harangued either, whether it is by religious folk, or by ConHugeCo trying to tell me I’ll get laid nonstop if I use their product. I don’t have a problem with people actually talking about their beliefs, as long as it is done respectfully and without “haranguing”.
Maybe I smell bad, or look evil, but I don’t have a whole lot of roving Christians trying to convert me. I should shower more.
If someone wants to spend their time trying to convince another human being that there is no god, I have no problem with that. Again, as longs as it is done respectfully and without haranguing. I think that’s the real issue.
There is no meaning for tragedy. It is just probabilities. A lot of things happen . Some kids die at birth. Some get cancer. Some are mentally challenged. Some are born with physical problems. Some are born to parents who will sexually abuse them and torture them. Is there meaning in that? Is your loving god just fucking with you? If child abuse and torture is wrong, god is guilty of it too. An all powerful god would not have to allow that to happen. Yet he always did. Seems kind of perverted, don’t you think? If a loving god existed , he would stop all the horrors like war . But he has not. How much more do you need?
Sure, but the majority of believers want to deny homosexuals equal rights, at least in the US. I’ll grant that the majority of believers probably do not want to wage holy war.
An arrogant atheist will be an asshole who thinks they know better than you.
An arrogant theist will be an asshole who thinks they are better than you, **and **wants to force you to be just like them and the rest of the world to operate by their rules.
Advertising for products or services is a bit different though. Here there are actual, demonstrable products being offered. (Some of them, like copper or magnetic bracelets, or Enzyte, or homeopathy, or whatever, are bogus BS and try to sell you at least in part on faith, I’ll grant you, but they’re demonstrably fake once it ultimately gets down to testing.)
Of course, people don’t generally like advertising either. We’re just inundated with it and most of us grudgingly understand and accept the need for it.
It almost certainly depends on where you live. I almost never got Christians trying to convert me and handing me literature until I moved to where I live now, and since then have been (politely, granted) engaged by Christian youths who’d launch into a spiel about accepting the love of Jesus Christ into my heart and asking when I’d like to set up an appointment to discuss it further. This is aside from having roving bands of JW’s handing me copies of the Watchtower on numerous occasions – but at least they just hand it off and usually don’t bother you beyond that. (Or at least haven’t bothered me beyond that.)
I don’t mind one side having a debate with the other on the existence or lack thereof of God – as long as the discussion was invited and the debate framed in those terms. It’s when I get stopped with, “Have you accepted Jesus Christ?” as if he’d been trying to get ahold of me and I was just avoiding his calls that I get a little bristly, mostly from the matter-of-fact assumption that Jesus exists and I’m just in denial.
I think you mistake my position; my assertion all along has been that I do not believe God exists, and do not believe there needs to be any meaning attached to anything on a cosmic level. Shit, as they say, happens. Sometimes it’s just because someone is an asshole, sometimes it’s because someone is careless, sometimes it’s because someone’s vital organs just decided to give out, sometimes it’s disease for no readily apparent reason, and sometimes you just get flattened by an asteroid that just happened to pop out of the Oort cloud and land on Earth – on you. Random stuff happens all the time and frequently there’s absolutely no rhyme or reason to it – or at least none that we have the capacity or desire to trace. It happened, that is the reality. I see no real need to try and deconstruct it any further than that.