This seems a lot different to the “united we stand” rhetoric given by the Australian Government after September 11th, and before our federal election.
After all the warm fuzzies I got from the US dopers in various “thank you” threads directed at Australia, this just shows us to be shallow and unworthy of the praise, IMHO. The USA, Great Britain, etc are talking about a cmpaign which may last for years, and the Aussie government is baulking at months.
Yeah, but I wasn’t smiling when I did so. I’m not a natural conservative, but a reluctant one, given the alternative. If I really wanted to vote on the right, I’d vote ALP!
d&r
BTW, mods, if this gets too political for MPSIMS, apologies. Not really a debate, but should have probably put it in IMHO or the Pit.
Not wishing to get into a political argument, but I did think that Howard got way too much kudos for doing essentially nothing in the week following 9/11. IMHO, of course.
[hijack] what is the penalty for not voting ? Was asked by a friend, and I have no clue !
[/hijack]
Australia is already pretty stretched with East Timor at the moment. Besides, the government said they would stand with the US in regard to the attacks on 11.9. To me, that means helping to find Osama and doing what it takes to prevent further attacks on America. I don’t see why it should mean going along with America on every single issue such as the occupation of Afghanistan. Until Bush decides to return some favours like loosening up restrictions on free trade and not opposing some of the important ini tiatives that we support, I think we should be a little more cautious.h
Goo, $20 fine if you can’t come up with a good explanation as to why you didn’t vote (“I thought all the candidates were shite” doesn’t qualify). If you don’t pay the fine by the due date, it goes up.
On the subject of the OP, I understood Howard’s promises of help to be for the duration of this shit-fight, not just until the first goal looked like being accomplished. That may just be me misreading, though.
In my book, if you say you’re going to be there for something like this, you do it. If you’re going to drop out, it had better be for a good reason. Even if our commitment’s not a huge one in terms of manpower or hardware, the show of unity is still important.
That said, there’s Mersavets’ point; any ADF Dopers able to give information on what % of our forces are committed to E.Timor or any other areas?
tavalla, I can’t help with stats but I have an interesting anecdote. I used to go to school with a girl who is now a senior constable in the Victoria Police as is her fiance. The last time I saw her was the first time in over a year and she told me that her boyfriend was in East Timor. I assumed he was part of some international contingent of police but she said that he was actually on 18 months leave from the force and posted to an army intelligence unit. It wasn’t routine desk work either but rat her spending extended periods of time in the bush taking photos near the border and setting up electronic surveillance of militia activity. He was to spend a year there and 6 months in Sydney training with the army before he went over.
My friend said that he was given the opportunity simply because the army didn’t have the personnel to carry out the tasks themselves. When he comes back home later this month, he will go back to his regular duties with the cops.
Howard is so quick to kiss arse that I think we really must be stretched in Timor for him to be knocking back a peacekeeping role in the Middle East.c
To be fair, I didn’t consider the East Timor issue, and the strain that is taking on our armed forces. What pisses me off is not specifically whether we are in Afghanistan or not (though I kinda think we should be), but the lack of consistency. Howard was making political mileage of this two months ago,and now that seems to have been forgotten.
I totally agree with TheLoadedDog there. I guess I’m not really against peacekeeping (and even making) in Afghanistan either. It’s the inconsistency and hypocrisy that pisses me off. I’m not against America or Americans but I can’t see why hundreds of thousands of Rwandans’ deaths weren’t reason to act when a few thousand Americans’ are. I can imagine the squeals of outrage already. This is the defence of freedom and democracy blah, blah, blah. We are obliged to help our American cousins because they would do t he same for us. It’s all bullshit.
When it comes to the lives of innocent men, women and children I can’t see how it matters why they were killed or by whom. We’ve allowed far greater atrocities to slip by before so the only reason we’re pursuing this is that the victims are white and speak English like us…
Much as I love you (in a totally platonic way) TLD, did you ever think it would be different?
When has it ever been different in your lifetime or mine?
You’know, I’m one of the people who first accused Howard of doing the “all the way with LBJ” thing when he committed us to this “campaign” without any raification whatsoever by the people. But “the people” had their oppotunity to express theit opinion about all of this a week ago - they chose Howard and his policies, and no matter how vehemently I disagree with his policies and I think that they are going to destroy everything this nation stands for, this IS a democracy; people vote with their feet.
If the majority of Aussies even GAVE an shit, then this wouldn’t be happening. We have the luxury of trying to enforce “democracy” on other nations even though lots of us nationals can’t be bothered casting a vote at the ballot box.
I pretty much loathe every single person in our nation who is standing for power right now - I really hate the fact that more often than not we vote for the “least worst” option. But if that is what we do in my country and in the US and in Britain, then who the fuck are WE to tell other countries that they should adopt our kind of government?
Really - we hate our own politicians and we whinge about our sytems of government but we want to inflict our inperfect systems on the rest of the world?
Sorry Andrew, I love you to pieces, but can you publicly justify our recently enacted “border protection” law?
I hope that you will still be my friend, even though I disagree with you vehemently on this issue - East Timor matters to me; so do a whole lot of other military fuck-.ups our politicians committed us to and justified their actions by quoting this or that treaty.
I’m seriously considering moving to NZ - and that’s an option which I never thought for a single minute would be viable in my lifetime.
We have no greater right to impose our “beliefs” on the world than ObL does.
The only thing I truly regret is that we voted last weekend and yet again did the “all the way with LBJ” thing.
So am I ringing you, or are you ringing me Andrew? Between us we really need to organise meeting plD at the airport.
My phone number (if you’re ringing from outside Australia) is 61 2 9671 67 60.
… of a less-than-well-informed 'merkin (did I get it right this time) girl!
As someone who spent endless hours comforting her somewhat psycho but still wonderful friend Simon after Kim Beazley’s resignation speech, I can certainly agree that this rankles just a bit of piggybacking on the “war on terrorism” to get votes. Urgh. (Were I an Australian citisen and able to vote I would have voted Labour, obviously … I think that’s obvious, that is obvious isn’t it?)
TLD, don’t worry; just being willing to support us in the “war” is enough for this American. I mean, heck, your country was the target of a declared Jihad thanks to your willingness to back us up! I don’t think it matters one lick if your troops are there for the peacekeeping or not, personally, I think what matters is that you stood beside us.
I am no expert or not even especially learned in Australian politics, but I never really expected much from Honest Johnnie … a few nights ago, poor dear Simon said, “Damn those terrorists!”
“For starting the war that lead to Howard’s re-election?” I asked.
“No! For missing him when they attacked!”
smiles Anyway, cute and rambling stuff aside, I will agree with you that it does seem, on the surface, to be precisely what you claim it is, and that sucks. It sucks a lot, and I don’t blame you for wanting your vote back. I can honestly say that I hope there is more behind it than that, and that the people of your nation are served by their leaders in an appropriate manner.
I’m going to completely butt out of the “should they be there for the peacekeeping” topic though … If you need to know my full thoughts on the idea, just look here:
I have to say that, personally, I think this is perhaps the smartest thing I have read on these boards. I agree with you 100%.
Whether or not they belong there, though, it did seem in the weeks after the 9/11 attacks that Australia’s government had pledged itself for the long haul. If they are now renegging on that, it does stink of re-election politics, and it is, IMHO, dishonourable. If they had never meant for it to go beyond the hunter-killer mission for ObL, I think it could have been made a bit clearer. Overall, I want my optimism to reign here, so I want to believe that even if your gov’t stated that they were only going to support the ObL hunt, and not the successive peacekeeping effort, the election would have resulted in the same person as PM. I want to believe that. It’s all nice and happy and fuzzy and warm, and I like nice, happy, fuzzy, warm things.
Heya, reprise, I think you and I need another beery political debate hunkered down in some pub on George Street.
You’re totally right about this never having been any different in our lifetimes. The “All the Way with LBJ” bit is a little before my time, but it did cross my mind once or twice lately. Still, I think a presence in Afghanistan is the right thing to do. I hate the idea of Australia bowing to a US master, but I don’t think that applies so much in this case as it did in the sixties.
As for the border protection bit, it’s tricky…
I have no problem with a sovereign state wishing to protect its borders. I do have a problem with Howard’s motives for being so gung ho about it at this particular time. As much as I loathe One Nation (and yes, I put 'em last), it was almost worrying to see their vote shrink and go to the two major parties. In a way, I’d rather see their vote contained to them (providing they don’t do too well of course). Appeasing the far right is a black mark both Liberal and Labor will wear for the next three years. Don’t forget Beazley’s Coastguard rhetoric. Go back twenty years, and you will find that both Bill Hayden and Malcolm Fraser, despite what you may think of their general politics, were thorough gentlemen when it came to humanitarian treatment of refugees. Doing right when it is politically unpopular is a lost art in this country.
So Howard doesn’t want any part of a transitional peacekeeping force in Afghanistan? If the warlords return to an early 90’s style messy and bloody struggle for power in that country, Howard had better not complain when the boats continue to arrive on Ashmore Reef.
As for pldennison, I seem to remember him saying he was leaving the US on Friday, so he’s probably somewhere over the Pacific as I post this. I offered to try and arrange a lift from Mascot, but I didn’t hear back from him, so I guess he’s got something lined up (he’s part of a group, as I recall).
You might want to get a mod to remove that phone number too. There are more than a few weirdos on the net. Who knows, possibly even on the SDMB!
I don’t think it matters one lick if your troops are there for the peacekeeping or not, personally, I think what matters is that you stood beside us.