OK, I don’t really have a “debate” so much as a IMHO, but it’s about the war, so it’ll devolve into a debate soon, so I put it here. Mods, do as you will.
I love the Australians for their grit and moxie most all of the time.
But I love them most of all, because, right now, they understand, as Tony Blair said awhile ago, that the price of having influence on US foreign policy is that “you don’t leave the US to face the tricky issues alone.”
So in contrast to some other nation-states, they have signed on to the idea that as bad an idea as war in Iraq is, it’s the least bad option on the table.
Today’s Daily Telegraph:
“A MASSIVE deployment of Australian ground forces to the Middle East for a possible war with Iraq begins today in Sydney … The Kanimbla will join HMAS Anzac and Darwin in the Persian Gulf where they are enforcing sanctions against Iraq.”
Oh, but that isn’t the part I love. This is:
“Code named operation Bastille, it is the biggest contingent of Australian troops to be sent to the Gulf and is larger than expected…”
Personally I don’t have a problem with sending troops over in readiness. I would be uncomfortable though, if the troops were subsequently commited to war without the backing of the UN. Unfortunately as a non-citizen of Australia I have absolutely no say in the matter what-so-ever, though by the looks of that poll, the wishes of the Australian public majority aren’t being follwed.
I don’t really think that there is too much support in Australia to commit forces to the Gulf, and any more than a token committment would be impossible, due to both public sentiment and our committments elsewhere.
A contingent of SAS troops is the most useful support that we can provide, as they are easily the equal of any other elite forces around the world, and they would be far more useful than any larger committment of soldiers or aircraft than we could provide.
The Australian newspaper reported this morning that 4RAR - Australia’s only commando battalion, was on standbye, but I would be very surprised if we went the stage of committing an entire battalion.
By the way, it is ‘Aussies’, not ‘Ozzies’ - I believe that Ozzy refers to an old pommy rocker or an ostrich not seen in a few years.
Do I take it that in your view “what needs to be done” is self evident? Your careful use of language that suggests that debate is unnecessary is obnoxious “There is only One True Way” (which is, as it happens, your way).
There are many here who think that if the US wants to pursue its rather strange obsession with Iraq, they should do so on their own.
Sounds to me like a bit of a threat there furt, do you see this as a “you back us or face the consequences” type of situation?
A poll I saw a week ago (sorry I can’t find a link) found 82% of Australian respondents did not support a war with Iraq, and expressly not without full UN agreement, and as DDG points out another poll had this figure at 61%
Basically there is far from majority support for any war with Iraq and even less for a US led rather than UN sanctioned one, influence on US foreign policy being dangled as the carrot or not.
This is true, and important. Personally, if there was UN backing for this war I’d be less reluctant about it, not that little Johnny Howard cares what I think. But given the present circumstances, no-one I know supports sending troops over. We have commitments in East Timor (close to home) already, and other places.
However, Aussies do indeed kick ass. Or arse, if you prefer. But we’re generally quite peace-loving.
Well, in general terms, most people understand that that countries which tog out with the US on foreign policy issues are more likely to be listened to by the US government on foreign policy issues than those which do not, if only because the US will prefer to keep them on the team. (Curiously, this holds good for nations other than the US as well.)
On the other hand, if the particular influence you want to have on US foreign policy is to persuade them not to go to war with Iraq, supporting them in going to war with Iraq is, on the whole, unlikely to give you the influence you want, is it?
Moreover I find the idea that another nation should drop a few bombs on Iraq in order to increase its bargaining power in Washington DC morally questionable, to put it no higher.
woolly is on of the “Well OK with a UN mandate, but not else” side of the debate.
However, it should be noted that every time (and I mean every time) the US has banged the war drum, Australia has answered. This isn’t some recent switch of allegiance or act of vested interests.
However, as to having influence on US foreign policy, I’m not sure that extends to much more than the odd Rose Garden photo op and the offer of a band-aid and a “sorry” after we’ve been trodden on.
I think your mistaking “The Australian Public” with “John Howard”.
Basically, A large proportion of the Australian public have been heavily critisizing JH on what can only be described as “copious ass suckage” towards the USA. Public sentiment seems to be that more should be done in trying to stabilise the local region (ie. Indonesia) and work on the refugee problem rather than to commit to a faraway war that has little real consequences on our particular region.
You are wrong, furt. Australians are stupid. We don’t kick arse. We’re the biggest fucking wastes of space on this whole continent. A large majority of us voted into power a racist, reactionary government who doesn’t give a fuck about anyone unless they’re earning big money. A government who cast political honesty and accountability out the window, a government that blindly follows the most despicable foreign policy in the western world, a government that is systematically destroying the freedoms of its citizens to create a fearful society that will continue to embrace its backwards ideals.
Save your praise until we really deserve it. Australia doesn’t kick ass. The best thing we’ve done for ages is oppose this Iraq deal, but it doesn’t make up for any of the disgusting policy that the Australian population has supported over the past few years. Fuck Australia.
afterthought: of course, my post should only be read as a stress-relieving rant. If you want to read a somewhat more rational view than mine, just check out the four or five posts above, which all speak on the matter quite sensibly.
You should still feel good about yourself, gex. Consider how much worse the above rant would have to be coming out of my mouth:
Americans are stupid. Almost half of us voted into power a racist, reactionary government which doesn’t give a fuck about anyone unless they’re earning big money. A government who cast political honesty and accountability out the window, a government that aggressively generates the most despicable foreign policy, a government that is systematically destroying the freedoms of its citizens to create a fearful society that will continue to embrace its backwards ideals.
The real problem is that there is no decent alternative to the coalition. I suspect that a Labor government would be almost as supportive of the US as the coalition (I know that Crean is stating his concerns now, but that is the opposition’s job), and I can’t imagine how we’d be if the Democrats ever had some influence again.
