Auto mechanic fraud? Beating the "book rate"

[Bren_Cameron_1]

*Originally posted by bernse *
**Well, I think I have realized that you are trying to say the same thing I am, just in a different way. You are calling the “book time” the “job”, where I am calling it the “time” you are getting charged. We’re basically arguing the same points to eachother, just changing the terminology.

**

Not exactly–close, but not quite. I’m calling the book time “a number they use to help determine what each job should cose, in this case a theoretical “average time.””

You’re calling the book time “the time the job should take.”

Not the same thing.

Now the “job” is the entire service–the repair to your car.

Even though it may have only taken them 1-1/2, they are charging you three. Thats all I’m saying. They are billing you for TIME in the BOOK, NOT the time the actually took?
It looks like you’re trying to say the same thing, from what I understand.

They are not charging you for hours at all. They are billing you based on a number in the book. The time taken to do the job means nothing (except to you, who want your car back in good time, and the tech, who doesn’t want to go broke by taking ten hours to do an oil change).

How that number was determined means nothing. They could call them “tiddlywinks” instead of hours and determine them by rolling dice on the first full moon after midsummer, and it wouldn’t make a difference–they aren’t charging you by tiddlywinks, they’re charging you a rate based on a number of factors, including tiddlywinks.

**However, I consider a “flat rate for a job” to mean “total price, period.” That is something that different shops rarely equal as their rates and parts are almost certainly different. **

[/QUOTE]

I think you’re misunderstanding what “flat rate” means. Flat rate doesn’t mean everyone, everywhere charges the same thing. “Flat rate” means that when I’m at the Head2Tow Automotive Repair and Hat Shop, I pay $20 for an oil change. No matter how long the oil change takes, or how old my car is, or anything else. I go to another shop and pay $25. But that’s a flat rate, too, because that shop always charges $25 for an oil change, even when I wear a very short skirt.

AOL charges a flat rate for unlimited access–I don’t know what it is these days, it was around $25 when we dropped AOL. Now, there are other companies that charge other rates for unlimited access–if Bren’s Internet Access and Porn Shop charges $15 a month for unlimited access, that’s a flat rate–even if it isn’t the same as AOL’s, which is also a flat, per month charge.

[bernse]

*Originally posted by Bren_Cameron *
**Not exactly–close, but not quite. I’m calling the book time “a number they use to help determine what each job should cose, in this case a theoretical “average time.””

You’re calling the book time “the time the job should take.”

No. I’m not. I’m calling it how long the book says the job should take.

They are not charging you for hours at all. They are billing you based on a number in the book. The time taken to do the job means nothing (except to you, who want your car back in good time, and the tech, who doesn’t want to go broke by taking ten hours to do an oil change).
How that number was determined means nothing. They could call them “tiddlywinks”

No. You are wrong. They call it hours for a reason. They multiply that number by the hourly shop rate.

If you go in and get a car diagnosed, for say, an electrical problem, the tech will often charge straight time. If the shop is $70 an hour, and he/she takes an hour, you get charged $70.

If you get a “job” that has a book time of “2 hours”, and takes them in reality, 1 hour, you get charged $140. That is why it is called book time. That is why it is called *hours[i/] and not “twiddlywinks” or “workcredits” or whatever. You’re right, they use it as a unit of measure, just as a minute, hour, day is a unit of measure. But that is what it is THE RATIO OF AN HOUR TO CHARGE. Be it .5 or 8.

[bernse]

Gah… My coding nightmare continues. Anyhoo:

*Originally posted by Bren_Cameron *
**
AOL charges a flat rate for unlimited access–I don’t know what it is these days, it was around $25 when we dropped AOL. Now, there are other companies that charge other rates for unlimited access–if Bren’s Internet Access and Porn Shop charges $15 a month for unlimited access, that’s a flat rate–even if it isn’t the same as AOL’s, which is also a flat, per month charge. **

Yes, but that is the whole reason of this thread. These shops for the most part use the same reference for pricing. AOL and Bren’s Porn Shop don’t use the same, industry wide manual to figure out pricing for a customer.

[Carnac_the_Magnificent]

*Originally posted by manhattan *
**It’s not fraud because it’s disclosed in advance to the consumer. What you wish it to be or think it “should” be is wholly irrelevant. **

Moderator, set a good example and read the posts before responding.

P.S. A little specificity would be welcome.

[manhattan]

Oh, I read the posts just fine. You have a preconceived notion of what consumer fraud is and don’t care whether the facts support you.

Specifically? OK. When you go into a mechanic’s office and ask what the charge will be for something and how it’s determined, the mechanic will respond something like “We charge the posted rate per hour above times the number of hours specified in this book, plus parts.” You now know the charge and the basis for the charge. No fraud. Since you have incorrectly asserted without evidence several times in this thread, the evidence is on you to demonstrate otherwise. I’m not running a rant forum here.

[doreen]

Yes, but that is the whole reason of this thread. These shops for the most part use the same reference for pricing. AOL and Bren’s Porn Shop don’t use the same, industry wide manual to figure out pricing for a customer.

They use the same reference for part of the price. But if my mechanic charges $60/hr and the dealer charges $80 , even if they use the same book my mechanic’s price for an oil change will be the same for all of his customers and that flat rate will be lower than the dealer’s flat rate.I’m not really sure what your objection to the book is- the shop must estimate somehow how long a particular job will take, and they must build extra time into that estimate (at least on actual repairs) to account for the unusual situations or you must pay by the actual hours- in which case you’re screwed when a job that should take two hours takes ten because of unanticipated problems. If the shop is going to charge a flat rate for repairs- oil changes are always the same price for the same car, new brakes are always the same price for the same car- what difference does it make if the shop uses the book time to estimate or comes up with their own estimate of approximately how long each job should take on each car ?

[Uncommon_Sense]

*Originally posted by whuckfistle *
**Here`s where additional problems arise.
during one trip to the shop you may do the following:
Brake job = 2 hours
Replace belts = 1.5 “”
Oil change = .5 “”
Pack bearings = 1.5 “”
Rotate tires = 1.0 “”
Allignment = 2.0 “”

Add these up and you get 8.5 hours. In reality they could probably be done in well under 5 hours.

Here`s what happens:
Some of the tasks require repetive actions. You have to jack the car up to change the oil, rotate the tires, pack the bearings and to do the brake job. “Jacking the car up” time is figured into the flat rate jof each project yet in reality the mechanic only has to do it once. Taking the tires off is figured into at least three of the flat rates yet the mechanic only has to do it once. Prep and clean up is figured onto all of them yet the mechanic only has to do one prep and one clean up. The oil can drain while the mechanic loosens the tires or gets the parts ready for the next project, etc…
This scenario leads to the costumer being double or triple charged for certain portions of the flat rates that cross over into other flat rates. **

I hate to do this, but was this not worthy of comment?
Or is it defenseless?

[Bren_Cameron_1]

*Originally posted by bernse *
**
Yes, but that is the whole reason of this thread. These shops for the most part use the same reference for pricing. AOL and Bren’s Porn Shop don’t use the same, industry wide manual to figure out pricing for a customer. **

Now I’m confused. You said a flat rate couldn’t be called a flat rate because different shops charged different rates. Whether an industry-wide standard is used to determine that flat rate has nothing to do with the fact that it is, indeed, a flat rate.
Now, AOL and Bren’s Porn Shop probably use very, very similar data to determine what to charge–among that data will certainly be the number of hours each employee has to work per customer per month. Just because that number is factored into the flat rate doesn’t mean it isn’t a flat rate, and certainly doesn’t mean the customer is being charged “by the hour” for the work of those employees. If Spanky the Server Hamster happens to spin his wheel twice as fast in June, I’m not committing fraud when I don’t lower my customers’ rates that month–because I’m not charging my customers based on the number of hours Spanky works, I’m charging them the flat rate of $15 per month for access to the internet and all the horny amateur college girls they can stand. But I do take Spanky’s average speed into account when I figure my flat rate.

And just because WebOnADime charges by the hour for their hamster-based service doesn’t mean that Bren’s Porn Shop isn’t really charging a flat rate, and it doesn’t mean that my flat rate is somehow secretly charging by the hour for Spanky’s efforts and therefore cheating the customers when Spanky has too much coffee with his Hamster Chow. And that would be true whether or not both companies were basing their calculations on an industry-wide book of hamster specs.
The hours in the book are called hours because they do indeed represent a number of hours–it represents, among other things, the number of hours’ wages the tech receives for doing the job. But just because that number of hours is factored into the price of the job doesn’t mean you’re being charged by the hour. That’s my point. And the book saying a brake job is worth two hours doesn’t mean that they (or anyone else) expects every brake job to take two hours. It represents, instead, an attempt to measure something that isn’t easily measurable–how difficult the job is. Which translates into how much they should pay the tech for doing it–which itself is a compromise between what the tech wants for the job and what the company is willing to pay.

If the hours were, instead, called tiddlywinks, and a shop said that the price for a brake job was x number of tiddlywinks plus parts, and explained that a tiddlywink was a measure of how difficult a job was, you wouldn’t bat an eye, and probably wouldn’t complain that the tech didn’t use as many tiddlywinks as the book said.

[bernse]

Now I’m confused. You said a flat rate couldn’t be called a flat rate because different shops charged different rates. Whether an industry-wide standard is used to determine that flat rate has nothing to do with the fact that it is, indeed, a flat rate.

The labor time aspect may be industry wide, but thats it! A flat rate at Joes’ Garage is not going to be the same rate at Freds. The charged time might (or will) be, but nothing more.

If the hours were, instead, called tiddlywinks, and a shop said that the price for a brake job was x number of tiddlywinks plus parts, and explained that a tiddlywink was a measure of how difficult a job was, you wouldn’t bat an eye, and probably wouldn’t complain that the tech didn’t use as many tiddlywinks as the book said.

I am seriously thinking of banging my head on the wall.

They AREN’T TIDDLYWINKS. THEY’RE HOURS. THEY’RE HOURS FOR A REASON!

And the book saying a brake job is worth two hours doesn’t mean that they (or anyone else) expects every brake job to take two hours. It represents, instead, an attempt to measure something that isn’t easily measurable–how difficult the job is.

Gah! No! It is an estimate of time!! Of course, they are going to be related with the difficulty though, but it is still an estimate for the time taken! You’re right, its difficult to put a finger on the time, but that is exactly what they try to do!! Nascar 6, since you helped write some books on this, can you elaborate or maybe explain please?

[Bren_Cameron_1]

*Originally posted by whuckfistle *

Here`s where additional problems arise.
during one trip to the shop you may do the following:
Brake job = 2 hours
Replace belts = 1.5 “”
Oil change = .5 “”
Pack bearings = 1.5 “”
Rotate tires = 1.0 “”
Allignment = 2.0 “”

Add these up and you get 8.5 hours. In reality they could probably be done in well under 5 hours.

Here`s what happens:
Some of the tasks require repetive actions. You have to jack the car up to change the oil, rotate the tires, pack the bearings and to do the brake job. “Jacking the car up” time is figured into the flat rate jof each project yet in reality the mechanic only has to do it once. Taking the tires off is figured into at least three of the flat rates yet the mechanic only has to do it once. Prep and clean up is figured onto all of them yet the mechanic only has to do one prep and one clean up. The oil can drain while the mechanic loosens the tires or gets the parts ready for the next project, etc…
This scenario leads to the costumer being double or triple charged for certain portions of the flat rates that cross over into other flat rates.

**I hate to do this, but was this not worthy of comment?
Or is it defenseless? **

I’ll check with Mr. Cameron to see how his employers deal with this situation. I can tell you, though, how the shop where I met him dealt with it. (I was a customer there, and that’s how I met him).

If I had repairs that had basically the same “labor” components to them, I was only charged for the labor once, since the “hours” are really a token that means “how much work,” and that work was only done once. The manager of that shop was very good about explaining to me just what work was done and how it was charged–it was one of the reasons I was such a loyal customer there. He would explain if, for instance, one of the repairs needed was, say, behind the water pump that I was also having replaced. “We’ll do that labor, taking the pump off,” he’d say, “so it’s just parts for the other one.”

I was very sad when that shop changed management, but by then I was getting free service.

At any rate, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that lots of other places do that, too.

And that doesn’t change the “flat rate” thing, in my book. The rate is still flat, it’s just that you’ve already paid that portion of it.

[Bren_Cameron_1]

*Originally posted by bernse *
**The labor time aspect may be industry wide, but thats it! A flat rate at Joes’ Garage is not going to be the same rate at Freds. The charged time might (or will) be, but nothing more. **

You’re still not getting it–a flat rate at Joe’s Garage doesn’t have to be the same rate at Fred’s–it’s still a flat rate! And so what if it isn’t the same at Fred’s? I don’t see why you’re insisting on that point when it’s irrelevant to it’s being a flat rate, and meaningless to the discussion as a whole.

**I am seriously thinking of banging my head on the wall.

They AREN’T TIDDLYWINKS. THEY’RE HOURS. THEY’RE HOURS FOR A REASON!**

Yes, they are called hours for a reason. But calling them hours doesn’t mean you’re being charged by the hour when they use that number to charge you for the job. You seem to be missing this point, which is the actual point of the discussion, and I’m getting ready to do some headbanging myself.

** Gah! No! It is an estimate of time!! Of course, they are going to be related with the difficulty though, but it is still an estimate for the time taken! You’re right, its difficult to put a finger on the time, but that is exactly what they try to do!! **

That’s what they try to do because it’s the most practical way to determine the difficulty of the job–not because they’re charging you by the hour. Even then, it’s not perfect, and the number, in the end doesn’t represent the number of hours the job will take–just an average Nascar 6 and his co-workers reach under certain conditions in his shop. You’re assuming that number is “the amount of time every brake job should take” and then saying that if it takes fewer hours, the customer should be charged less money for the job.

But the shop is not charging by the hour. They are using an average, a multiplier based on tests in Nascar 6’s shop, to determine what they should charge for a repair.

My point about the tiddlywinks is that calling it “hours” and saying “the brakes will cost two hours of labor” makes it sound as though they’re charging you by the hour, when they’re not. They could, indeed, call it tiddlywinks–there’s no law saying they have to call it “hours.” They could call it dollars, or CostPoints, or anything else they want to, but they call it hours because that’s simplest, because that’s the starting point for determining the number. The number is a way of representing the amount of work a customer is paying for. IT DOES NOT REPRESENT A NUMBER OF HOURS OF WORK THE CUSTOMER IS BEING CHARGED FOR! That is my point.

If you can’t see that, I don’t know how else to say it to you. You’re slipping kind of sideways–you argue that using book time is cheating because most experienced mechanics usually beat it. The counter, that it doesn’t matter because book time is not a number of hours work for which the customer is being charged, you counter with the somewhat meaningless assertion that indeed, book time is an estimate of hours of work. Yes, it is. But it may as well not be–the customer is not, in a flat rate shop, being charged by the hour. Even when they use book time to determine those flat rates. It’s calling it “hours” that’s making it confusing–which is why I introduced the idea of calling it something else.

[Nascar_6]

*Originally posted by bernse *
Gah! No! It is an estimate of time!! Of course, they are going to be related with the difficulty though, but it is still an estimate for the time taken! You’re right, its difficult to put a finger on the time, but that is exactly what they try to do!! Nascar 6, since you helped write some books on this, can you elaborate or maybe explain please? **

I’ll try

When I started in the “Labor time guide group” the history that I was told was that the time guides where put into place for the manufactures and warranty work for the dealers. That way all the jobs were billed the same, everyone had the same baseline of time for a repair, easier for the them to keep track of time. They didn’t have to follow up on why a dealer in Denver took 4 hrs. to do a job and a dealer in New York took 6 hrs. to do the same job, this is what the manufacture will pay period. That way they didn’t have to watch or worry about rouge dealers padding the bills, slow mechanics/ fast mechanics and they could keep track of and budget labor costs of warranty work.
The manufactures publish a service manual for a vehicle and outline a step by step procedure for any given repair. We would take that vehicle and perform the repair following the step by step procedure. Record the time and report it. That would give them a baseline/estimate of the time it took to perform that repair. That time would get reported in a labor guide book. When a vehicle would come in for repair, the service writer would write it up, look in the book find out how many hours, pass it along to the mechanic, when the work was done submit the bill to the manufacture and get reimbursed. Now that is the real reason, I was told, the books where published.
Now enters the CP (cash pay customer). The following is from my experience from working at a dealer and a general repair facility. The service writer would write up the work order, look in the book for the time, give the estimate to the CP, if accepted pass it along to the mechanic and the work to be preformed. Now comes the sticky part, if a part was hard to get off, busted bolts or anything to add time they would call the CP (if over the state limit of over costs of an estimate) and tell them it would cost more because of the extra work required and charge accordingly. But if they got it done quicker they would never lower the price to the actual amount time spent on the job, because in their minds the CP already agreed to pay the estimated amount.
Now we I ran my shop the book time was given as an estimate but billed as actual time, and I never had a complaint about my costs. Explained to them up front this is an estimate could be more ( then I would call) or could be less won’t know until the job is completed. That’s they way all shops should run but that’s just my opinion.

In the front cover of “Motor- Truck & van labor time guide” the following is written
Operation Time Section Operation times reported herein are complied from available manufacture and shop data and are published only as an estimating guide.
The times shown apply only to standard stock models and do not apply to vehicles with equipment other than that supplied by the manufacture as standard production options. If other equipment is used the time may be adjusted for variables. Also additional time may be encountered when difficulties arise due to corrosion, rust, carbon build-up, varnish, broken studs, etc.

Sorry for the book on this.

[Nascar_6]

I think some confusion is the “Flat rate” meanings.
In my mind
Flat rate is: I will change your spark plugs for $50.00 period no more no less.

Hourly rate is: I will change your spark plugs for $25.00/ hour. You are getting charged from the time I start on your car till I am done with it.

Book rate is : I will change your spark plugs, the book calls for 2.5 hours at my rate of pay/billing of $25.00/hour so $62.50.

Estimate is: I will change your spark plugs, I charge $25.00/hour it should take me 2 hours that would be $50.00 but if I get down sooner it will be less and if I run into trouble it could take me longer and cost more.

[Mechanical_Man]

So Nascar 6, you are the 19 year old girl who sets the flat rate time for warranty repairs. LOL, that’s a little joke I hear about who sets the time in the warranty book. Onl, I have been hearing that same line for over twenty years now so, either you are not getting any older or, something is different than what I have been told.

As for the few posters who can’t seem to figure it out about flat rate repair estimate vs. the actual time spent performing the repair, I have just a couple words…

Figure out a better way and, then you can whine about the industry standard. Yes, I did say “industry standard.” Forgive my punctuation, I am a mechanic first and a speller second.

Anyone who has had any experience working for the dealer level service shops will know about the little differences in flat rate time regarding customer pay jobs and, manufacturer warranty jobs. For those who haven’t, I’ll clue you in. Nascar 6 has the perfect working environment when the flat rate time schedule is written.

All the right tools…

No distractions…

Factory fresh vehicles with no wear and tear to interfere with the repair. The big factor that often makes a big difference in how fast the job will get done. One repair that comes to mind is suspension work. Oh how I love to repair a front end that has had about 80,000 miles of road gunk built up on it.

Do you realistically think I am going to charge the same “hourly” rate for this gunk infested hunk of sheet metal as I would for a near-new vehicle? I think not.

Am I going to “pad” the time a bit to help save my ass if the whole thing turns to $hit? Damn right I am.

Am I going to tell the customer that I may have difficulties with his/her car that I wouldn’t expect froma newer car? Yep! And, I am am not afraid to charge more for this scenario.

Sooner or later the logic of this approach should sink in for the average joe. If I don’t really know who’s shop is going to do the work and, I don’t know what the technicians skill level is in advance and, I want to write an estimate for repairs on a national scale then, I can call it an “hourly” rate. From here the customer can dicker and barter for a better overall price. Preferably, I like the shorter skirts on bren. That might make me lower the bucks-per-hour I might charge.

Of course, if bren was a consistent whiner, I might just raise that rate if I thought he/she was trying to cause trouble for no reason. I have customers like that who automatically get the high ball rate simply for the added “time” I need to explain over and over again about the differences of estimated time against the actual time it took to complete the job.

From the top now… Flat rate was created to set a benchmark for what a repair should take any technician under the best circumstances.

Your flat rate estimate is an E-S-T-I-M-A-T-E. If you agree to that estimate then, where the heck does the support for a fleecing come from? You should’ve done the research and, countered the service person in an informed manner about the charges before the job was started on.

Whining about it just makes you out to be a whiner.

[ralph124c]

Have you ever looked under the hood of a modern Audi or M-B car? You have to remove tons of stuff just to get to the part you want to work on! Take the AUDI A4-changing the engine drive belt is a huge job-because:
-ther isn’t much room under the hood-you have to have very small hands to fit in there!
-the whole top of the engine (radiator shroud, etc. has to be roved and replaced to access the belt
That’s why I like old cars-much easier to work on!

[Rick]

*Originally posted by bernse *
Shops I’ve worked at the job doesn’t start until the car is in the bay.

Quoting from the Volvo factory standard time guide

*Each labor operation includes the following:
A) Preparation time ie get the bay ready
B) Repair time
C)Personal allowance time to consult manuals, personal needs etc
D) Supplementary times secure and return special tools, transport vechicle to and from special work area (alignment rack)
E) Workshop allowance Time provided for moving vchicle in and out of the workshop, preparing work orders, punching time clock securing spare parts, placing vehicle on lift of jacks. Time for vehicle test drive and final adjustments, when required is also provided.

So do you have a cite that says shagging the car is not included?

Time to diagnoise (not always included in repair but may be)plus

Off the top of my head, I know of no job booktime to include diagnosis, except an actual job that is a diagnosis.

Again from the VSTG Operation 31103-0 Battery replace include test and charge test. (includes replace battery and test charging system).
How many more would you like to see?

Time to go get the parts from the parts department (the damn things don’t just jump off the shelf, this step alone can take 15 minutes in some shops)plus

True, but should never be more than 5 minutes. And thats generous. Many shops already have the parts on the bench before the car is even in the bay.

Never more than 5 minutes? Yes it should but it often times takes way more. Also some shops are so big it is a 5 minute walk to parts. I can only say that I never waited more than 5 minutes in one delership I worked at. Most places if you got out in 5 minutes you high fived everybody on the way back. Unfortunaly most guys that own dealerships see parts guys as a pure cost. They don’t realize how much a technician standing around costs them. So they don’t have enough help, and the techs stand around to wait their turn. It is ture that some delerships do stock some fast moving parts at the technicians bay, but as you can see from #E above time is built into the allowance for securing spare parts.

time to do the repair (duh)plus Time to do the paperwork plus

**
An experienced tech can do most jobs in literally seconds, for what they have to write. For the rest, that is what a service writer is for.**

Again refer to #E above, in a complex repair the technician’s notes can take five or ten minutes to doccument. Since warrenty won’t pay if technican’s comments aren’t complete, and the service writer has no idea what to write down without my comments, they are of vital import. Also in our sue happy world if I don’t document my repairs up the ass, we could lose in court.

Time to test drive the car

**True, this would take the longest out of all of them. I’ll give you 5-10 minutes for that. **

Many fault codes require a test drive of 20-30 minutes before the flag is set verifing the repair. Also how would you test drive a complaint that says after driving for 45 minutes, car stalls? five minutes around the block? Can you say come back?

Thank you for playing

[bernse]

So do you have a cite that says shagging the car is not included?

Nope. Other than I know the 3 shops I worked in didn’t charge the customer to “find the car” in the parking lot, since the service writer is the one that put it there anyhow. Regardless, it is almost a moot point as I have yet to see a shop that does not have parking for its jobs, usually very near the shop enterance. I suppose, if they’re working on 6 green Neons that day it could be a little interesting finding the car, but thats why they write down licence plate #. I’ll give you 5 mintues for finding your car and driving it into the bay.

Again from the VSTG Operation 31103-0 Battery replace include test and charge test. (includes replace battery and test charging system).
How many more would you like to see?

You also know as well as I do that a replace battery generally comes at the end of an AVR, which is has already tested the battery. I will concede, the more I think of it you will test the part that you think is suspect before you replace it. HOWEVER, this usually does not take long and most importantly, is (I will concede to Nascar 6 on this if he disagrees) included in the repair time if it is required to do.

Never more than 5 minutes? Yes it should but it often times takes way more. Also some shops are so big it is a 5 minute walk to parts. I can only say that I never waited more than 5 minutes in one delership I worked at. Most places if you got out in 5 minutes you high fived everybody on the way back

Yes. And many shops the parts are already ready to go, or the parts window is a 10 second walk, not around the block as you allude to.

Many fault codes require a test drive of 20-30 minutes before the flag is set verifing the repair. Also how would you test drive a complaint that says after driving for 45 minutes, car stalls? five minutes around the block? Can you say come back?

Thank you for playing

Your welcome. If you so up on it, you will also know that not every repair job, actually relatively few, require driving a car around to make the ECM create a code. For jobs that do, most have stored the codes already and narrow down the problem for the tech. Your scenario might be right if is say, a stalling problem after it is hot. I can think of far, far fewer scenarios that require a car to be driven around for 20+ minutes than hardly at all.

[Rick]

*Originally posted by whuckfistle *

Here`s where additional problems arise.
during one trip to the shop you may do the following:
Brake job = 2 hours
Replace belts = 1.5 “”
Oil change = .5 “”
Pack bearings = 1.5 “”
Rotate tires = 1.0 “”
Allignment = 2.0 “”

                               Add these up and you get 8.5 hours. In reality they could probably be done in well under 5
                               hours. 

                               Here`s what happens:
                               Some of the tasks require repetive actions. You have to jack the car up to change the oil,
                               rotate the tires, pack the bearings and to do the brake job. "Jacking the car up" time is
                               figured into the flat rate jof each project yet in reality the mechanic only has to do it
                               once. Taking the tires off is figured into at least three of the flat rates yet the mechanic
                               only has to do it once. Prep and clean up is figured onto all of them yet the mechanic only
                               has to do one prep and one clean up. The oil can drain while the mechanic loosens the
                               tires or gets the parts ready for the next project, etc....
                               This scenario leads to the costumer being double or triple charged for certain portions of
                               the flat rates that cross over into other flat rates.

**I hate to do this, but was this not worthy of comment?
Or is it defenseless? **

Armed with my trusty factory time guide lets look at some numbers (all of the above numbers apply to a 200/700 series Volvo since that is the time guide I have infront of me) YMMV.
Done on the same work order
Operation code/ description/ time
51021-3 brake pads
replace 4 wheels 0.6
(wheels off)
17510-2 oil change 0.3
77003-2 Rotate tire
(wheels already off) N/C

77308-2 Pack bearings 1.1
(includes wheel removal)
60152-2 4 wheel alignment 1.2
Total 3.2

Now the same jobs Ala carte

51031-2 Brake pads 1.0
17601-2 oil change 0.5
77003-2 Rotate 0.4
77308-2 Pack bearings 1.1
60152-2 Alignment 1.2
Total 4.2

You will note that pack bearings and alignment don’t change between example 1 and 2. This is for two reasons. 1) pack bearings is where the removal of the wheels is paid for in example 1, and 2) Regardless of what else is done, an alignment requires movement of the car to a different stall, and the attachment of specilized equipment. So no discounts apply to these items.

And what was the question again?

[norinew]

I’m not sure I believe this thread belongs in GQ. Country Squire doesn’t seem to be looking for a factual answer, but rather an argument. Many people have posted with factual answers to the question. To the arguments that seem most logical (i.e., charging by the actual hour would reward sloth and punish efficiency), Country Squire does not reply at all. To the more esoteric answers (i.e., there must be industry standard; sometimes it’s accurate, sometimes not), CS replies: that doesn’t help your argument. It’s still fraud".

I believe this particular forum is for questions where a truthful, factual answer is actually desired. It sounds to me like CS made up his/her mind prior to posting the question, and no answer is going to be suitable.

I usually give my 2 cents, but this post took me about 3 minutes. At a flat rate of $1.50 per minute, I just gave my $4.50’s worth.

[Rick]

*Originally posted by bernse *
Nope. Other than I know the 3 shops I worked in didn’t charge the customer to “find the car” in the parking lot, since the service writer is the one that put it there anyhow. Regardless, it is almost a moot point as I have yet to see a shop that does not have parking for its jobs, usually very near the shop enterance. I suppose, if they’re working on 6 green Neons that day it could be a little interesting finding the car, but thats why they write down licence plate #. I’ll give you 5 mintues for finding your car and driving it into the bay.

So first off you are working off what you thought you knew. Look up this is General Questions we deal in facts.
The first Volvo dealership I worked for did on the average 80 cars a day. With holdovers we had parking for about 150 cars split between two lots, one in front of the shop the other a 1/2 block away. The second shop I worked for did about 120 cars a day and had parking lot about 1.5 times as big as a football field. Go find the blue Volvo. There are 25 freaking blue Volvos out there. After looking at each one you discover the brain dead service writer wrote up a red Volvo as a blue Volvo.
**

You also know as well as I do that a replace battery generally comes at the end of an AVR, which is has already tested the battery. I will concede, the more I think of it you will test the part that you think is suspect before you replace it. HOWEVER, this usually does not take long and most importantly, is (I will concede to Nascar 6 on this if he disagrees) included in the repair time if it is required to do.**

OK you asked for it
26108-0 Radiator replace
(incxludes 26002 pressure test)
26202-2 Water pump replace
(again includes 26002 pressure test)

I can keep this up all day but I have better things to do. Don’t bother to argue this one you will lose.

**

Yes. And many shops the parts are already ready to go, or the parts window is a 10 second walk, not around the block as you allude to.
Your welcome. If you so up on it, you will also know that not every repair job, actually relatively few, require driving a car around to make the ECM create a code. For jobs that do, most have stored the codes already and narrow down the problem for the tech. Your scenario might be right if is say, a stalling problem after it is hot. I can think of far, far fewer scenarios that require a car to be driven around for 20+ minutes than hardly at all. **

In a shop that does a 150 cars a day not everybody can have the stall next to the parts counter. Somebody is going to be out in the weeds. I know of shops where the technicians have bicycles with baskets and they ride to parts.
Usually the cars come in with codes. After the repair a test drive must include the conditions under which the control unit tests for the code. Some codes are not tested for up to 30 minutes. some are tested as soon as the key is cycled on. So it depends on whcih code is set.
I have driven cars for up to 4 hours trying to duplicate problems that a customer reported. Did I get paid for my 4 hours? I freaking wish. How long test drives take is partly a function of what kind of work you are doing. If you are doing oil changes and water pumps, the test drive is usually short. If on the other hand you do advanced driveability issues, test drives are probably over 15 minutes most of the time.