Let me get this straight. You’re about to merge into a traffic lane. The traffic is heavy and there’s no room to get up to speed to merge smoothly. So you’re advocating that the driver cut into the traffic lane, even if there isn’t a safe merging opportunity, so they don’t stop? :dubious:
You’re prefer to play bumper cars? To hope that the drivers who have the right of way give it to you?
So there is nothing inherently wrong with stopping on a merge. If there’s no room to merge (and on older highways, very often there isn’t), then only an idiot would try to go forward to force one instead of stopping and waiting for a break.
Well, most of them do.
There’s one on-ramp for the Parkway in Oakland, heading east, that doesn’t have a stop sign… visibility’s crap… traffic is barreling along at at least 45 miles an hour… and the on-ramp is maybe 30 feet long. What’s at the end (or at least was, circa 1994? A yield sign. I generally went out of my way to avoid using 376 unless there was no other way, cause there’s no atheists merging onto the Parkway.
My experience with Pittsburgh drivers is that they generally do stop at the end of an on-ramp, no matter what. I scared the bejeezus out of passengers by accelerating on the acceleration ramps.
When I lived there, the 11 o’clock news was always urging drivers not to slow down when they hit the tunnels… but you gotta because the guy in front of you is probably gonna slam on the brakes, and you gotta be prepared. Not quite the Prisoner’s Dilemma, but it’s in the ballpark.
I believe they are pitting people who could merge perfectly, but stop instead. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I assumed he would have no problem with people who HAD to stop because they COULDN’T merge safely, but that is only an assumption.
Back in the late 90s I lived in Southern California, and along parts of the Pasadena freeway there were teeny tiny entrance ramps with no merge lanes and stop signs. I don’t think I ever had to navigate one of those, but the thought scares the crap outta me! I guess they weren’t expecting people to be trying to go 70 on it.
There’s a stretch of the 210 from San Bernadino to Pasadena that has stop lights at the end of every ramp, right before the feeder lane. They only turn these on during the worse rush hour traffic in the mornin and evening. They also have them on the 118.
I’ve never actually had to stop because I beat the traffic coming both ways, but they’re there.
What Jinx said. Not every merging lane has a merge sign. Some of them have a yield sign, and for the people who confuse the two, there is a special place in hell for you. (Well, it’s near the top, where it’s not that hot. But still.)[ul][li]If the sign is a nice pretty merge sign, then freakin’ merge, don’t stop!If the sign is a nice pretty yield sign, then if you have to slow to a stop to yield to traffic, slow to a stop to yield to traffic.[/ul]But if I’m behind you, I’ll still get a little cranky.[/li]
And for Twin Cities Dopers, eastbound highway 7 to northbound highway 100 is too sharp of a cloverleaf to actually try to merge at anything over 30 mph.
I’m not pitting anybody. I think it will be impossible for us to agree on the conditions in which one can or cannot merge safely within the confines of a message board — I think we’d all have to be in the car and see the particular on-ramp and traffic flow. I think it’s becoming evident that these are both factors that affect the driver’s decision.
My OP was all about learning about (1) what people have been taught and (2) what they ususally do when merging.
And — once again — I know that people are required to stop at metered (intermittent stop-lighted) on-ramps. The gray area is in regards to on-ramps without signs.
I know which one you’re talking about, and I’m glad I never have to use it. When I lived in Greenfield the Squirrel Hill interchange was bad enough. (Hey, kids! How do you get off the expressway? Loop around and get on it going the other direction! Try not to die, now!)
Every once in a while someone will write into the Post-Gazette urging people not to be utter tools about it, but it’s just become One of Those Things. My family from Ohio is horrified when they see me take a Yinzer Left. After 10 years it’s just ingrained.
And on preview, I see that Hey you commented again. I was taught that you find your way into traffic as best as you can, changing speed or waiting as necessary. Sometimes people will move over for you (and sometimes the $%*^&s will happily run you off the road). Once I’m outside the city that all comes into play again. But within the city the expressways were built where they’d (barely) fit and some of those rules have to change.
lno’s got it right - the Hwy 7 to Hwy 100 (either direction) is insanity. I drive Hwy 100 every damn day, and the poor drivers merging on from Hwy 7 always have to stop at the end of their acceleration lane. I think it’s actually safer for them when it’s rush hour - then everyone’s going slowly. When it’s not, it’d be suicide to try to merge from that on-ramp into everyone zipping along on 100.
Luckily, I’ve only had to get on from that on ramp once. Nervousness.
Snicks
Without a doubt, the most terrifying piece of road I have ever been on! What I especially enjoy is seeing all the crash debris from the unfortunate souls (it tends to “collect” as no one in there right mind would attempt to pick it up) who bounce off the walls and guardrail on this little stretch of paradise. The off-ramps are great. You have to slow down from 60 or 70 mph, with a maniac on your tail, in about 40 feet, then do a 90 degree turn thru a 2 foot deep pothole.
I used to fire up this road while in college, as I had a three credit golf class that was played at Arroyo Seco. I was even haired out then, as a reckless, immortal youth. I don’t live there anymore, but I’ll tell ya, its a bigger thrill-ride than anything Disney could throw at you.
So I am in Sweden being driven by a guy who learned to drive in New York.* We are on a highway going about 100K (about 60MPH) Another highway is merging on our left (we are in the fast lane) This idgit comes to a complete stop, and looks over his left shoulder to see if any cars are coming. At this point I start screaming that he needs to step on the gas, and start wondering just how long it will take to ship my broken body home in a casket after we get hit by a truck.
He finally stepped on the gas, and we did not get hit. He told me he was being “safe”. :smack:
My answer to him is the same I will give you RealityChuck You need to insert your car between two other cars that are both going 60 (or 70 or 80) MPH. Is this easier to do if you are going 60 (70, 80) miles per hour or if you are going 0 MPH? The answer is obvious; it is easier to do if you are going at or very near the speed of the other cars. If you stop on the merge ramp, this is very difficult to do.
As far as there not being room, when traffic is moving at speed, It is rare in the extreme that there is not at least 2 car lengths between the cars you wish to merge between (and that would be a guy who is tailgating big time) Since my car is one car length long fitting it in a 2 car length space is as easy as can be, if I am going at the same speed. If however I am stopped it is very hard for me to merge into a 2 car length space since I don’t drive a fuel dragster.
When I first learned to drive my father taught me that it is easiest to merge if you are going the same speed or slightly higher than the traffic you are trying to merge with. This is because you can slow down faster than you can accelerate. So if traffic is going 60 it is easier to merge at from 65 and losing 5 MPH than it is being at 55 and trying to add 5 MPH.
** whiterabbit, and gatopescado** I grew up only a couple of miles from the Pasadena Freeway, and learned to drive on it when I first got my learner’s permit. The Pasadena Freeway was the very first freeway ever built (IIRC 1947) and frankly, the engineers did not have a lock on how to design a freeway. They experimented with all the different ramp arrangement they could think of. On this freeway you will see off-ramps that have a hard 90 degree corner off the freeway and are posted at 5 MPH. (Ave. 43) :eek: You will see ramps that are long and smooth, but have a stop sign at the end and are behind a blind corner (Ave 52) :eek: You will see on-ramps that have hard 90 both with and without a stop sign. (Ave 43 plus one by Dodger stadium in the tunnels going north) :eek: :eek: If I am not mistaken there is even a modern on-ramp with a merge lane up around Ave 60. Also if you notice the lanes are narrower on this freeway than any other. The Pasadena Freeway is home to some very good drivers. They have to be to stay alive on that sucker.
*Not to slam people from NY but every time I go back to our headquarters, I almost get killed on the Palisades Parkway by people that STOP at the end of the ramp while I am trying to merge behind them. :mad:
Well I still live in Pasadena and have many occasions to drive the Pasadena Freeway (SR 110 between I-10 and --almost-- the I-210). And it’s only terrifying if you’re not driving properly.
A very short offramp with a stop sign and a right hand turn. Both labeled “Speed Limit 15mph?” Gee, did it occur to you to slow down?
A very short accelleration lane? How about waiting for an appropriate opening? Yes, it sucks, but everyone else seems to manage.
Too twisty and turny? Learn how to steer thru a curve and slow down.
The Pasadena Freeway is the oldest freeway in the US and was designed for vehicles traveling 45mph. It has some tight turns and is not banked at all. But I still see riceboys and lowriders and white boys in pickups all pretending they’re driving Formula One cars trying those curves at 70 or more… in heavy traffic.
I’ve proven it’s doable at 80, but only northbound, and only in the wee hours of the morning, when the absence of other traffic allows one to use all three lanes to maximize one’s radii. And only when one knows how to shift and steer properly.
I had to google around for images to see what this road is like - but pictures like this and halfway down this page suggest that it’s a highway in name only. It’s stupid and dangerous to retrospectively apply high-capacity principles to a road that just can’t cope.
I certainly never tried to go over 70 on the Pasadena – I was uncomfortable at 50 on some of the curves! I’m just thankful that I never had to use some of those exit or entrance ramps; most of the time when I was on it I was going all the way out to Pasadena and then back (I lived right near Venice).
I know it’s old, I know it was designed for slower speeds. I was (and if I’m ever on it again will be) more than happy to not try to get up to the speed of light.
Well, actually it is a freeway. It is a divided highway with controlled access points only at designated interchanges, with merging and deceleration lanes, there are no stop signs or signals, and its speed limits are generally higher than local traffic streets.
At places where there are tight curves, there are signs posting the safe speed for the curve. For example, the Ave 60 curve has a posted limit of 45mph.
There are many stupid features on Southern California Freeways, but the Pasadena Freeway by no means has any more of them than the modern freeways.
For instance, at some point, Caltrans engineers thought it would be a good idea to make the acceleration lane for one on ramp the same stretch of road used for deceleration for the next offramp. So on this same 100 yard stretch of freeway lane, you have people trying to speed up to merge with traffic on the left, and other people trying to slow down to exit the freeway. This arrangement is ubiquitous on LA freeways.
That’s stupid.
And on the brand new 210 freeway in San Dimas, the on ramp at Fruit Street going westbound has a long acceleration lane, but only a couple dozen yards of merging space once the lane meets the actual road. I see people nearly collide on a weekly basis because they don’t expect the merge lane to run out so soon, and there is a vehicle, usually a big rig, on their left, leaving them no place to go.
That’s stupid.
And on the 605 South to 10 East interchange, you must trade lanes with the folks attempting to negotiate the 10 West to 605 South interchange. The engineers gave the two ramps a 150 foot stretch of road to share, and their paths cross.
Yeah, I meant ‘highway’ generically, not specific to US terminology.
That’s fairly common on some UK roads (the new section of the M60 springs to mind). However, it’s always a good half-mile or more between exits, which changes things. And I suspect they’ve started to do it because so many people sit in the middle lane even when the left one is clear.
I’ve seen that on Italian roads. And yes, it’s stupid.
Most of the acceleration lanes where I drive (101 and 880 in the Bay Area) are exactly like this. It makes both getting on and off the freeway a real treat. You not only have to figure out who’s coming, what their intentions are, but also if they are the type of driver who accelerates to get in front of someone trying to be in the same place as them or decelerate to get behind. I make it a practice not to assume anything about people in front of me.
Good question. I should have clarified that it is not my standard reaction to stop on the on-ramp. I want to merge smoothly with traffic as often as possible, and usually I can. But maybe once every seven to ten times I try to get on the freeway, there’s enough traffic to keep me from merging, and there’s no merge lane. It’s one of the stupidest on-ramp designs I’ve ever seen. Sometimes I’ve even used the shoulder as a merge lane, but that’s a bit chancy. Given the choice between being run off the road by someone who won’t let me merge or suffering what would inevitably be a low-speed rear-ending by someone who might not be paying attention, I’ll choose the rear-ending.
Also if you notice the lanes are narrower on this freeway than any other. The Pasadena Freeway is home to some very good drivers. They have to be to stay alive on that sucker.
