I gripe quite a bit about other drivers - I just want to make sure I’m not being a nuisance (or a danger) myself…
Those of you in Minneapolis will be able to help more. I’m talking about taking the on-ramp off of County Road 7 to get on southbound Hwy. 100 (speed limit 55mph).
The ramp is a very tight circle. One cannot go very fast around it (at least I don’t). There are two yield signs near the end of the ramp. After the yield signs, I estimate that there is less than 100 yards of lane with which to accelerate and merge onto the highway (which has two lanes in both directions). To compound matters, the acceleration lane is the beginning of an exit ramp that is also roughly 100 yards ahead.
So this morning I was on the ramp, and I stopped at the yield signs because as I was coming down the ramp, I couldn’t get a clear view of the on-coming traffic because there were some weeds in the way, and it’s hard to navigate the curve and look out to see the traffic. Sure enough, there were two cars coming – both were in the near lane and did not move to the far lane to let me in. I did not start going forward until they were close enough that I knew I wouldn’t run out of ramp and hit them before they passed. As I started forward, the driver in the car behind me (on the ramp) made like he was trying to pass me on the ramp and then bolted immediately into the far lane. I accelerated and got ahead of him, and when he passed me, his wife turned and gave me a look like I’d just done something incredibly stupid.
I always thought you were supposed to stop – not just creep along – at a yield sign if the on-coming traffic made it necessary. I know there is some finesse to this sort of thing, but I didn’t feel safe creeping forward under the circumstances. My car is eleven years old and doesn’t have the pick-up it once had – meaning I can’t just pull out in front of someone and rocket away to a safe distance. (Of course the guy behind me didn’t know that.) When there is more traffic on 100, people have to go slower and it’s easier for me to pull out with a smaller gap. Those two cars were the only ones on the road for quite some distance and chances are, they were going well over the speed limit. I wasn’t about to dart out in front of them and make them slow down because I hate it when people do that to me.
As my father used to say “Hey mac yield does not mean give up!”
Yield does not equal STOP.
Think about this for a second. Is it easier to merge with traffic moving at 55mph when you are going 55 or when you are stopped?
If your car is old (or even if it is new) is it easier to get to 55 from a dead stop or from 30 mph?
Yield means that you do not demand a space in the ongoing traffic flow, you yield until traffic is clear.
This seems to be an east coast thing. Here in LA even on the shortest ramp if there is a yield sign people accelerate down the ramp and merge with traffic.
People from the east coast (I travel to NY, NJ a lot) STOP at the end of the ramp (No stop sign just a yield sign) and wait for a gap.
Even the heaviest traffic has gaps between cars.
People in Pennsylvania (Western PA, at least) stop at yield signs. People in NE Ohio do not.
There are several places I can think of from my travels that I’ve experienced where an enterance ramp meets an exit ramp. While it’s kind of scary, Rick is right. It’s easier to do whole at least rolling.
The question is, though, if someone gets hit, who is to blame? I think it will end up being the person in the YIELD lane.
Also…if “yield” never equals stop, then why must “left turn yield on green” at some intersections? Surely that doesn’t mean roll slowly into traffic…
Hmmm, the heavier the traffic, the slower everyone (usually) has to go - which makes for easier merging. The less traffic - the faster everyone (usually goes) - because they are able to maintain more distance between the car ahead of them. But there are moments when the traffic is just fast enough and just congested enough that I feel rather nervous about just launching myself out into the flow of traffic. Eventually, there is a gap wide enough to merge with, but what if it doesn’t come for several cars? I fully agree that going from a dead stop is more difficult, but with this ramp I could run out of acceleration lane and not have a safe gap to merge into.
I was always taught that the folks in the near lane should move into the far lane for people merging on, but if they elect not to (or can’t because there is someone next to them), what am I supposed to do?
Yeild means you must yeild the right of way which could very well mean you must stop.
When I get on the northern state parkway I usually stay back before the acceleration lane starts and if traffic is heavy and I don’t see an opening (or some bozo is stopped on the acceleration lane which BTW is somethign like 50 ft) I stop and wait for an opening.
Sometimes someone gets impatient - I just blow them off. One time they tryed to pass - I just pulled up a little which means they would have to go from the grass to the busy parkway - it ain’t happening.
Then again I see more and more people doing what I do.
There are, in my experience, rare instances when you really do need to stop when merging onto a limited-access four-lane highway.
Around here there are a few limited-access two-lane highways (one lane in each direction with entrance and exit ramps instead of perpendicular intersections) where it is much more likely you will need to stop. The drivers behind the one who has to stop are not always very understanding. Some people just barrel through as if there were no yield sign. The drivers who by law have the right of way usually manage to avoid ramming them. Usually. I try to avoid entering such highways at times and places where I expect the traffic to be heavy.
Most Southern California freeways don’t have YIELD signs. Most are either metered (very easy to figure out as there are red and green lights) or you just merge in on your own.
On the Pasadena Freeway, which was built in the 1940s, there are actual STOP signs on the onramps. But the Pasadena Freeway is not like any other freeway in Southern California.
I might have thought to check the book. Thanks Bilbliophage! Still, it doesn’t mean anyone else bothers to follow that rule. Even though it wouldn’t be my fault, I don’t particularly want to get rear-ended by someone roaring down the ramp. I discussed this with my brother (who also lives here) and he agreed that I needed to stop. He also theorized that because most of the other ramps in The Cities are metered and MUCH longer, AND because the near lane drivers usually merge over to the far lane to let people in, some drivers get angry because they think they’re entitled to be let in always and therefore don’t have to stop on the ramp. Like you said.
Anyway, I think I’m going to find another way to work. Which is stupid, but what can you do?
Bob T you are right about the LA freeways All I can claim is crainal anal inversion.
My post should have read that even without yield signs LA drivers dont stop or slow down, drivers in NY / NJ do.
Aipper JJ’s coment about left turns is of course a different case as you are yielding to traffic approaching you. Of course you would have to stop to wait for a gap in traffic.
As far as what the manuals say. The Minnesota manual says slow down as** stop if necessary,** and give right of way.
[bolding mine]
So is it necessary to stop on a ramp?
Look at it this way. Assuming traffic is moving about about 20 mph unless your area is populated by crazed tail-gaters there will always be at leat 2-3 car lengths between cars. Two car lengths is more than enough room for you to merge IF you are going the same speed as the cars you are merging with. If you are going half as fast this is no where near enough space.
Octavia, I disagree with your comment about speed and merging. First off absolute speed is pretty much inmaterial (traffic going 30 vs traffic going 75) what matters is the relative speed (your speed vs traffic speed) and the size of the gap between cars. Since usually the gaps between cars is larger when speeds are higher, it is easier to merge with fast moving traffic with large gaps. This assumes of course that your relative speed is very low compared to that of traffic. A merge at 65 is very easy if you are going 64. If your speed is 30 it would be a bitch.
Have I ever had to stop at a Yield sign? Sure, but that is the exception.
Now I am not familar with the ramp outlined in the OP. It could well be one where you have to stop to be safe.
I don’t know if I’ve ever used that particular ramp (I don’t live on that side of the city anymore), but given your description, I would have stopped, too, if I didn’t feel I could safely merge, especially since the “yield” sign was there. Most onramps in Minnesota don’t have them, so I expect that that one was there for a reason.
There do seem to be a great number of people around here who don’t know what “yield” means. There are also people who will pass you on the right on the shoulder when you are trying to turn left, and people who are annoyed when you actually stop before turning right on red. Could there have been driving instructors around here WORSE than mine? These people make me all the more cautious.
I think you should call MNDOT and ask them when they are going to trim those weeds!
Well, IIRC, it’s not like it’s a huge, thick patch of cattails or anything - just some longish grass that is rather distracting. (Or possibly the ground is banked there to stop someone if they lose control going around the curve? I’m not usually focusing on that as I come down the ramp. I just know my view of 100 isn’t as wide open as I’d like.)
I don’t know about anyone else, but when traffic is heavy I’ll always try to make room for people to merge. IMHO, it keeps traffic going smoothly.
I think the problem with merging comes about when either the merger or the original drivers become ballistic… either refusing to give up your precious car length to let someone in, or zipping out into traffic assuming there will be room.
If you have to stop, stop. The cars on the freeway will always have right of way.
I would guess that the Yield sign is there to indicate that traffic exiting at that ramp has right of way over traffic entering the highway, as opposed to yielding to the highway traffic in attempting to merge. This has been said in other posts but Yield means that traffic in the other direction has right-of-way, but does not necessarily mean Stop. Typically if the other traffic is moving towards you or at right angles to you, a stop may be required to allow them to proceed unhindered. If you have a Yield with traffic moving in the same direction as you, you can continue without stopping but should not impede the traffic flow.
When entering the highway, you should be merging into the flow of traffic, meaning that you should be matching the speed of the cars when you pull in to the lane. I agree with Ricks description of merging.
When I start going down an on ramp, I will try to figure out which cars I will be merging in with and the available spaces that I might fit into so that I may adjust my speed when on the ramp.
If the grass is impeding your view, please bring that to the attention of the DOT. With a difficult interchange like the one you describe, drivers need all the visibility they can get.
There are a couple of things that people do that seem dangerous to me. One is stopping at the bottom of the ramp, as that will make it more difficult for the entering traffic to merge without slowing the highway traffic.
Another is trying to merge in front of vehicles, rather than trying to pull in behind one. It’s a whole lot easier to judge how much space is available by looking in front of you than trying to guess how much space is between you and the car that you are trying to pull in front of.
You’ve never traveled during rush hour in NYC have you. 2-3 car lengths would be a dream come true. Usually you just have to nose your way in and hope the other person stops.
Certainly, kirk, that only applies when there is actually a lane there to pass on the right with. I’m talking about people whipping around you on the shoulder of a two-lane road, which according to the Minnesota Drivers Manual linked to above, is indeed illegal.