Aziz Ansari, Sexual assault allegations

Cafe Society
321

The distinction isn’t artificial, and it’s binary because it’s distinguishing between two things. The distinction is between what is legal and what is not. There is plenty of room for bad behavior by everybody on the legal side but all you and others have pointed out is clumsiness.

He was not harassing her. She wanted to be there with him.

He wasn’t intimidating her. If she felt intimidated she shouldn’t have gone out with him.

He wasn’t demanding. She doesn’t indicate that in any way.

He wasn’t disrespectful in any meaningful way I can tell, unless you just mean his desires were different from hers.

Her story makes him out as pushy and insensitive. Big deal.

He didn’t do anything that even skirted illegal behavior. And nobody is normalizing it even by your construct of somehow making below average normal.

He was oafish and only interesting in having sex with her. Not good, but a woman who can’t deal with that shouldn’t be accompanying men to their apartments. And not any worse than the below average behavior by women that men encounter all the time.

That is in fact what she did, or a journalist falsely claimed she did. Did you read the original article? It is plain as day. That is focal point of this story. It’s not about airing dirty laundry in public, it’s about a false accusation of criminal behavior made to elevate this story from tabloid gossip to a serious matter related to #MeToo and other serious issues.

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It is not at all clear that the reference to sexual assault is meant as an accusation of a crime.

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Here’s another hypothetical form of “unfortunate experience” that might be easier for some guys to understand.

Suppose you ask a woman out on a date and buy her dinner. The dinner’s nice and you’re enjoying her company okay, although your enthusiasm’s a little blunted by the thought that you picked a more expensive restaurant than you could really afford and maybe it wasn’t such a great idea.

The two of you stroll down the street together and she asks you to take her to the new 3D movie. You really can’t afford that additional expense so although you don’t like to look cheap, you somewhat awkwardly refuse. She pouts a little bit and flirts a little bit and goes on walking down the street with you. (You’re about ready for the evening to be over but she’s the one who’s driving, and you don’t want to abruptly demand to go home. Besides, maybe he two of you will just have a fun low-key evening from now on.)

So you’re looking in store windows and she’s suggesting that you buy her this, and buy her that. In a smiling and charming way, but it’s clear that she’s not just kidding but asking. This is kind of embarrassing but you keep refusing, because no way do you have that kind of money to spend and even if you did you’re by no means sure you’d want to spend it on her.

At the ice cream shop she asks, somewhat loudly, “Well, since you asked me out on this date, will you at least buy me an ice cream?” Now you’re looking cheap in front of a crowd of ice-cream eaters who are side-eyeing you and grinning a bit. Feeling somewhat mortified, you tell her that of course you will.

You aren’t surprised that she picks the most expensive fancy ice-cream treat, but you are a bit surprised that when you open your rapidly flattening wallet to pay for it, she “playfully” reaches in and picks out a bill. She says, “For me? Oh you nice man, how generous of you!”, laughing and twinkling. It’s just a joke, right? Actually, though, you really need that greenback for your own purposes, so you ask for it back. She dimples at you “Oh no, finders keepers, you can’t take it back now!” and teasingly pops it down her shirt. Is this bitch seriously going to walk off with your money unless you try to take it out of her bra by force in front of a street full of people? That might not end well at all.

As you’re thinking what to do, she snatches the wallet itself out of your hand and takes the rest of the money out of it. “Thanks honey”, she giggles as she hands back your empty wallet, “you’re such a generous guy!” You still hope that maybe it’s all just a stupid joke, and certainly it would be hard to justify telling a cop that it amounts to literal robbery or some other criminal behavior. But the fact remains that she’s got your money and seems to have no intention of giving it back.
I don’t actually know how this story ends, but I know this post is going to be swarmed by guys declaring that they’d never let a golddigger push them around like that and it’s their responsibility to set their own financial boundaries and they would just extricate themselves with dignity and clearly communicate what they’re willing and not willing to do, and so on and so on and so on. Yes, yes, we’re all very proud of your good sense and self-reliance. That’s not my question.

My question is: Would you even consider describing this woman’s behavior as merely characteristic of a “below average date”?

Would you point out that she might merely be bad at reading subtle cues, honestly not realizing that you didn’t in fact want to give her lots of money that evening? Would you consider it to her credit that she “was at least clear in the communication [she] sent out; [she] knew what [she] wanted to happen and [she] asked for it”?

Or would you say that she was being badly behaved, greedy, selfish, demanding and ill-mannered?

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Yes, I get that that’s the distinction you’re talking about. I got that right away.

What I’m doing is wondering why so many people seem to think that that’s the only distinction that really counts or is worth discussing.

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Dear God, [Kimstu, gold digging is not a crime. Sexual assault is.

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It’s the kind of thing plenty of men have experienced. And it involved an actual crime. And she made no clear indication that she was going to steal his money, not that it would make the least bit of difference to inform someone that you are going to steal their money.

What a man does after a date like that is realize what a sap he was and next time he won’t pay for any more than he wants to. But I’ve never heard of a man falsely claiming he was sexually assaulted after that kind of very common story, even when he was a victim of a crime. Next time think of a story that supports your case.

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Yes, I know, but that’s not my point. The question I’ve been talking about, for several posts now, is why so many people seem so uncritical of greedy, selfish, demanding and ill-mannered behavior on the part of men pushing for sex, as long as that behavior stops short of becoming actual criminal assault.

And so they consider it just a standard hazard of a below-average date, do they? Shrug their shoulders, pocket the empty wallet and say to themselves “well, maybe she’s just not very good at reading my subtle cues that I didn’t want to give her a lot of money”?

You and AK84 need to get your stories straight on whether an actual crime was demonstrably committed in this hypothetical.

And if it was, are you really claiming that “plenty of men” consider it no big deal if a date literally steals a significant amount of money out of their wallet? Just regard it as “an unfortunate incident” that was ultimately down to him being “a sap”? Make a note that it’s his responsibility to communicate his intentions more clearly at the outset next time? “Hi, nice to meet you, and by the way, I don’t want you to take money out of my wallet”?

Mm-hmm. Sure.

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Bari Weiss has an excellent article in the NYT.

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Kimstu, last I checked, TriPolar and I are two seperate human being who can have different opinions and have not actually colluded in aswering your example. “Stories straight”:rolleyes:

The better analogy than the ridiculous one you proffered is this. You are in an apartment with someone and the heating is on. You find it uncomfotable. You never tell your host. You later call them inconsiderate since they did not pick up on your “clear non-verbal clues”.

People will rightly ask why you did not tell your host.

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Can you point to any other stories or incidents ever where the phrase “sexual assault” was not referring to a crime?

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Yes, that’s the one I refer to upthread.

Samantha Bee, and Lindy West both seem to come out on the side of “there is still a line that is being crossed; Ansari should be aware that changing the approach to consent is part of this Reckoning.” West’s column is basically a history of women and institutions trying to change the conversation when it comes to consent: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/aziz-ansari-metoo-sex.html

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Until your story had her actually committing crimes (that’s called theft, by the way, taking someone’s money out of their hands and wallet, and may even be robbery, if yanking the money and wallet from someone’s hands is considered using force) then yes, I’d say she’s bad at reading subtle cues, etc. And I certainly would consider it to her credit that she was clear in the communication she sent out, and I most likely would have given up on the date before your story had her committing crimes, because it would have been obvious she was after something I could and would not provide.

But, if we change the ending of your story to ‘I reluctantly buy her the most expensive ice cream’, and it turns out I then don’t have money for my own lunch for the remainder of the week because of all this, then I’m going to just admit I made a bad decision and move on. I’m not going to accuse her of stealing my money when she might have used pressure to get me to spend it on her, but didn’t actually steal.

Or, in another alternate example, if I had money to blow and she was attractive to me, maybe I’d just buy her all the stuff she asks for. That might not be a smart decision when I wake up a day or two later and she’s gone and not returning my calls, with a couple thousand dollars of stuff I bought for her, but that’s my not-smart decision to make. If I had had a sexual encounter with her at some point, and then she disappears with all the stuff I bought her, I would nevertheless still not be justified in posting explicit details of that sexual encounter to the internet, identifying her real name, and shaming her (the analogy breaks down a bit there because shaming her for gold-digging is somewhat different than divulging the details of a sexual encounter that has the presumption of privacy, but I tried to make do).

Where your story has her stealing money from his wallet, however, that really breaks down the analogy to the Ansari situation. Because to be a valid analogy, he would have had to do something to her against her will other than asking and pointing. Everything she did, she did willingly - perhaps reluctantly, perhaps not something she really wanted to do, but she wasn’t, at any point, forced. Your example has money and a wallet yanked from the man’s hands. He doesn’t reluctantly give up the money, he doesn’t feel pressured into giving it to her, she actually takes it regardless of his objection, whereas in the situation you’re making an analogy to, Ansari took nothing that she didn’t provide of her own free will.

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You received an answer in post 112.

That’s not what most people that don’t like Grace writing that article are claiming she should be feeling. Your hypothetical could be a little better at being a corollary to Graces’s experience. You said that you don’t know how the story ends, but you ended it with a wallet being “snatched” out of a man’s hands and taking his money. Aziz did not quickly and unexpectedly shove his dick in a woman’s mouth. If he did, the general consensus would be a different one.

A better corollary would be a woman ordering expensive drinks they both know he is going to pay for. He keeps saying, “maybe we should slow down” and “shouldn’t we drink something cheaper?” but she keeps ordering with him fully aware of what’s happening and he doesn’t end the date, and ends up with a big bill. At a later date he bitches and moans about it and claims he was robbed. A bunch of men come to his defense and throw the experience in to the #IWasRobbedTo movement, which started with men that were being robbed at gunpoint.

No, a bunch of men aren’t going to come to his defense. They are going to tell him that a lot of people that you don’t know very well are out for themselves and he should grow the fuck up and take responsibility for his purchases and remind him that he wan’t robbed at gunpoint.

It’s a better analogy then yours, but not perfect. Grace told the world about a private consensual sexual experience involving someone other than herself.

ETA: I posted this before seeing Mnemnosyne’s post.

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Oh! I finally get it. Yes means no, and asking for sex is sexual assault.

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That’s supposed to say post 312.

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Above I acknowledged that the journalist is definitely being irresponsible for using the phrase, because of its legal connotations.

But though I can’t cite specific examples it just seems unquestionable to me that many young people today think of “sexual assault” as a broader category than just the crime of sexual assault.

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Really? I find this highly questionable, and I’ve never heard the term used except to describe something that is at least strictly illegal, even if it probably wouldn’t be prosecuted.

Furthermore, if folks are using it this way, I think it’s a terrible idea to do so. We’re in a time when criminal sexual assault is being taken more seriously than ever before. If we use the phrase to describe non-criminal actions with a fuzzy definition, it’s going to muddy the waters unacceptably.

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I think Kimstu left it an open question whether this is a situation in which it would make sense to talk about a crime being committed, precisely because they are trying in part to explain why the crime question isn’t really the issue.

We could say even if she gives the money back before the end of the date it was still “technicaly stealing” but it would be frankly bizarre for the man in the situation to treat it as such. Calling the police and making a formal accusation, for example, would be strange.

And arguments over whether she committed a crime or not are, therefore, really missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether she committed a crime or not, that’s not the issue. The issue is the way she rudely, unthinkingly, constantly, pushed at his boundaries and used aparently tried and true interpersonal techniques to make him feel like he needed to stick around and bear it. We could criticize the man for sticking around but it is not believable that we would generally jump to that first thing. It would be an after thought, an “oh and also” tacked on, if we feel called out, after we first went all in on criticizing the woman.

BTW let’s add in that the woman is famous for having written a book about how to be a good date, which runs counter to everything she did on this date.

There is a double standard here. The crime thing is a red herring. It’s the thing we get to talk about to make us feel more comfortable, because we get to go to our comfort zone of definitions and logical disputes about the law and whatnot. This helps us not face the real issue–the one that has more import for more people over a longer time–the issue of whether we should consider Ansari’s behavior as “acceptable” or “normal” however “repugnant” we may call it when pressed.

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I honestly don’t understand how that’s so. Technical talk between lawyers and everyday talk on the street will always differ. Journalism is one place where both registers need to be thought about and navigated carefully. But just, everyday talk between people on the street? Language gonna lang

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I’m sorry, but no: when you accuse someone of a crime, you’ve made that the issue. When people equivocate, suggesting sometimes that “sexual assault” isn’t really a crime and other times saying that it’s beside the point, it becomes an issue.

If everyone in this thread stipulates that calling it “sexual assault” is incorrect and harmful, then sure, that line of conversation can get dropped. But to me, that’s a really significant part of the story, even if it’s not to you.