Aziz Ansari, Sexual assault allegations

Because your idea that assault could include CPR is, frankly, insane. So it’s jarring to hear a sensible idea AND a batshit crazy idea expressed pretty much in the same breath.

That’s a really, really wordy way of saying “I reject that reality and substitute it with one of my own”.

The term “assault”, under your definition, is essentially meaningless. A world in which lifesaving CPR and touching someone on the knee flirtatiously are both considered “assault” is one where things have gone spectacularly awry.

Especially because you’ve made it clear society (“we”) are wrong unless we change our views to suit you, instead of accepting that maybe you’re the one with the outlier view here.

Can you explain why that is a world where things have gone awry?

I have already said, twice, that mine is an outlier view, so it’s hard to parse what you’re trying to say here. I think I’m right and that most people are wrong? Yes, that is not a surprising thing any time anyone advocates for a minority view. Do you think one should not advocate for minority views? Do you think I have simply asserted a minority view without giving arguments for those views? I think you would not agree to either of those statements. So how do you respond to my arguments for my minority view? If you don’t have the time or inclination to respond, call it that! Don’t call it “Frylock insisting people should change their views to suit him what an unreasonable guy”. You don’t need to make stuff up, you can just say “I don’t have the time or inclination to engage with you on this.” No problem.

Where to start? OK, first of all, words have meanings and one of the beauties of the English language (as infuriating as it is to non-native speakers) is its capacity for nuance and not having compound words that sound like someone clearing their throat while getting themselves caught in their fly (looking in your direction, German!)

In general use, “Assault” is taken to mean physically harming someone - ie, punching someone in the face, kicking them in the groin, slapping them, shoving them into a wall, that sort of thing. No-one argues those things are assault, and where done non-consensually, cause harm and should be punished.

Similarly, sexual assault is commonly accepted to be physical harm in the form of rape, forced penetration, holding someone down and kissing them when they’re struggling to get away, that sort of unpleasantness.

Technically speaking, merely touching someone in any way they didn’t agree to is assault, but there’s a legal principle known as De Minimis - basically “The law does not concern itself with trifles”, which is why you can’t file assault charges against people who bump into you on the high street or clap a friendly hand on your shoulder and say “Mr Frylock, how are you this afternoon?”

Basically, assault is not, outside certain contexts, taken to mean “hurt feelings”, unless it’s combined with a physical injury as well (such as in rape or a vicious beating which has left the recipient terrified to venture out of their house, for example).

The idea that putting one’s hand flirtatiously on the knee of someone else counts as “assault” is seen by (I would suggest) most people as ridiculous - there is no physical harm caused by such an action, nor should a reasonable person experience any hurt feelings from such an action, beyond a “Ewww, creepy, no thanks” if they’re not into it. It’s certainly not something that should, in and of itself, lead someone to a therapist’s couch or a lawyer’s office, unless it was a situation such as a boss making it clear to his secretary that her employment might be under review unless she took the “personal assistant” aspect of her title a bit more… broadly.

Similarly, the idea that a lifeguard performing CPR on someone on a beach might be “assaulting” them is patently ridiculously because they’re not harming the recipient - quite the opposite. Conflating “trying to save someone’s life” with “beating the stuffing out of them” is absurd in the extreme because one of those things is clearly not like the other.

I’m all in favour of people advocating for minority views - God knows I have enough of them here - but there’s a difference between “having a minority view”

Frankly, I don’t like the idea of world where people with hurt feelings - or people who are told they should have hurt feelings - decide to “Come forward” and level accusations at people who have done fairly minor or even insignificant (or maybe even nothing) things.

Take this current thread: What, exactly, has been achieved by this woman accusing Mr Ansari of an unpleasant act? No-one’s life has been improved by this; the world is not a better place, no-one is getting “Justice” and most guys who aren’t SDMB members or Twitter activists would think that “getting handsy” or “being a bit to keen for a blowjob” might be “Uncool” or “A Dick Move” at worst - so all she has done is made things harder for the victims of actual sexual assault.

Basically, I do not like what you are proposing because it would make the world a worse place for people - regardless of gender or sexual orientation - and contribute to a climate of fear, distrust and unchecked political correctness.

So, I read the thread even though I am supposed to stay out of this shit. Can’t help it, I’m a fan of his.

Can we all agree that no matter what we choose to call it, having a sexual encounter end with one person feeling confused and violated is not a desirable outcome?

I’ve often seen the idea of primary prevention education dismissed because rapists will always be rapists, but the education isn’t for sadists who sexually violate others for fun, it’s for people in this exact situation who either fail to communicate or fail to receive signals of discomfort. In this case, based on allegations as reported in this thread, I don’t think either of the people involved understand consent. I think education about enthusiastic consent, and acceptance of this as a cultural standard, would diminish this problem a lot. And I think it is a very common problem.

The problem with the “she didn’t say no” line of thinking is that it favors the acquisition of the maximum amount of ass over the mutual comfort and satisfaction of the involved parties. Somehow we’ve decided as a culture that the ability to get laid should be protected at the expense of one of the people involved feeling uncomfortable. As a culture, we’ve focused discussions on the legal or ethical implications, the character of Aziz Ansari, the immaturity of the woman in question, rather than whether this is really the kind of cultural standard we want to have for sexual encounters. Leaving aside the implications for victims, I think this is sad. Sex, whether a deeply intimate emotional encounter or just something to do on Saturday night, should be fun for everyone involved.

When we minimize a feeling of violation as simply regret, we increase the likelihood that people will continue to be confused and uncommunicative and doubt their own perceptions in the midst and aftermath of assault or anything like it. I’ve been in situations where I’ve reluctantly consented, and can attest it’s something more than regret. The boyfriend involved was a manipulative, pushy asshole, but he didn’t commit a crime. That doesn’t erase that the outcome for me was shitty, and squabbling over the technicalities in defense of the right of someone horny to try aggressively to get laid is not, in my view, a net benefit to society.

The case in question appears to be one where someone who didn’t know how to say “no” encountered someone who didn’t know how to receive “no.” In this case, it may not rise to the level of sexual assault, but sexual assault was a highly probable outcome and will continue to be in cases with similar dynamics. This is not a good dynamic to have, okay. And education about what consent is - and is not - could have prevented it.

While I agree that consent for one activity does not necessarily mean consent for another, if you’ve already had enthusiastic oral sex with someone, the bar for communication of discomfort for future acts has just been lifted. “Slow down” does not in fact, mean “no.” It can be interpreted as “more foreplay, please.” If you’re comfortable enough getting naked with someone, you really should be comfortable enough to make your needs and desires explicit. On the flip side, if someone tells you to slow down, this is a good signal to be aware of what you’re doing and how it has been received. Enough was given here that someone focused on their partner’s needs rather than their own sexual gratification probably would have picked up on it.

So the outcome of lack of education and lack of an enhanced cultural standard of consent is one young woman feeling betrayed and violated and a feminist ally like Aziz Ansari probably shocked and horrified to be accused of sexual assault.

Is this what we want sex to be in this country? Because collectively, we get to decide. And how we choose to frame conversations like this one will make all the difference.

Chimera, it is so totally understandable that people who have not experienced abusive relationships could not possibly understand the complexities involved. On the flip-side, there are complexities about being a woman alone with a man in a sexually uncomfortable situation that men will never understand. We are never going to get anywhere with this issue until men start hearing that.

:rolleyes:Dear God. Focusuing on the “legal and ethical implications” is done, because that is exactly what these things are. Criminal acts and or civil wrongs. Like murder or theft. I suspect its really sucky to lose your property and obviously murder has major impact on a family and indeed a community, but those things are overshadowed, in discourse and rightly so

As for the objections over “she didn’t say no” again the ire is misplaced both generally and in this specific case. Whats often left out in disucssions is the fact that sexual assault and rape have both a physical and a mental element and btoth have to be present. The person needs to know or have reason to believe that consent is absent. Whether that is the case depends on the context and in the proper context, yes absolotley “she or he never said no” is proper and relevant. In this case the fact she had failed to say “no” is an issue because of the circumstances they were in, otherwise you are expecting him to be a mind reader.

If this had been another circumstances, say she was selling insurance and had come to his place to seal up a contract, then certainly her lack of refusal might well be seen as less relevant and he should have clairifed there.

Oh come on. Was there any hint of coercion? Power differetial? Even am offer like “baby suck me and I’ll get you into the business”? Saying no is the easiest thing in the world.

Indeed. In the Canadian supreme court implied consent ruling cited a few dozen comments earlier, a rather critical piece of information was left out.

This reminds me of a case I advised on a few years ago. There was this young woman (very young, but of age) who was abused by her uncle/guardian who liked to “rent” her out to his business partners for “entertainment”. :rolleyes::frowning:

No one can call her consent real in that case. And certainly the partners must have had their doubts, which the surpressed, to give the most charitable interpretation.

One particular transaction was especially troubling. One of the associates of the business partners was a young man, probably in his mid to late 20’s and she was assigned to “entertain” him. He was by all accounts a nice lad, good looking and polite. She even stated that she liked him and was actually happy to have sex with him.

When the time came, the question of charging him became an issue, and although my work was technically only advising the women’s shelter she was present at, I made it clear that in my view, he deserved to be charged as well, since i) consent was clearly obtained/given under duress, no matter what her own feelings and ii) the circumstances were such that he should have known it.

It was, not a memo which I drafted lightly and I did accept that perhaps a reduced criminal sanction was appropriate. But, the point stands, you need to look at the whole circumstances before deciding. Focusing soley on the presence of a “yes” even an (to use the current term du jour) “enthusastic yes” in the above case, would be misplaced as would the focuisng on the lack of a no in the Ansari case.

The law is a bare minimum standard for what’s culturally desirable. Plenty of legal things result in people being hurt. Your experience is in law, mine is in sexual assault prevention and advocacy. I would like to create a culture where the likelihood of sexual assault is minimized. We have two entirely different perspectives such that your informed knowledge about the law has virtually no bearing on my informed knowledge about how people get hurt in sexual encounters. The difference is that while I readily admit I know nothing about the law, your attitude suggests you think you know everything about being a person with unequal power in an uncomfortable sexual situation. You are so confident in this that you are dismissive of my reasonable and politely articulated views without having a clue where I’m coming from. That’s too bad, because I have not only experienced sexual victimization myself, I have professional experience working for an organization that serves victims of sexual assault. Most relevantly, my organization heavily emphasizes evidence-based primary prevention of sexual violence to the tune of 14,000 young people annually. So yeah, it figures I’d wanna talk about education, right?

I don’t know where you’re getting “ire” from, as I have none with regard to this case. I view both parties as victims of a pervasive culture of ignorance about affirmative consent. I see it as a good opportunity to discuss issues stemming from a lack of education about affirmative consent. Affirmative consent is not a standard I am proposing for the law, it is a standard I am proposing as a desirable cultural norm because just a modicum of education for either of these two could have prevented this from happening… And by “this”, I mean a woman feeling sexually violated and an unwitting self-identified feminist getting blindsided and publicly shamed because of it. Your view seems to be that it doesn’t matter what happened as long as it’s legal, and I disagree with that. I think we can do better.

I’m making no claims whatsoever about the law or what I think the law should be. Frankly I’m just fine with the current law as it is. And I’ve explicitly offered my opinion that this was not sexual assault. I’m not interested in crucifying Aziz Ansari. I despise the entire concept of public shaming and social media crusades. None of us have a clue what happened that night. As Stranger pointed out, this is not a reputable source. But it sure is a good opportunity to talk about this sort of thing.

This is the second time in recent memory you’ve ridiculed my perspective on this issue. Most people on this board who have experienced sexual victimization feel unable to participate in these conversations because of dismissive attitudes such as what you’ve demonstrated here. I know because they PM me. Disagreement is not the problem. Incivility, rudeness, and disrespect are the problem. A lack of acknowledgement of the fact that these discussions are for many of us not academic but personally painful is the problem. I would like to put the lie to that unsupported myth that emotion cancels out reason. But I’m not a thick skinned person, I’m a fucking jellyfish, dude. I have lost 6 hours of sleep to this thread because that’s what happens when you talk about a subject directly related to your trauma. I’m not going anywhere, but neither am I expending precious emotional energy to engage with someone who is rude to me. If you want to have a conversation, be nice.

Well, if we are going to tout our own horns, I have (thank God) not ever been a victim. I have however, dealt directly with victims of every possible stripe and who have suffered abuse of every imaginable (and many unimaginable).

Your fundamental premise is confused. You claim to not be interested in “law” but “cultural norms”. What do you think, “Law” is? Cultural and societal norms the breaking of which results in censure or sanction. Youi cannot advocate for a general affirmative consent rule in society and then turn around and say “but oh I don’t consider the law points, there are so many others”. No actually. The legal and social standpoint are so intertwined in this case that they have to be considered together.

I do note that you convineintly ignored the main topic of my posts (as well as a later one) which was about the fact that the transaction had to be looked at in its whole before one could seriously come up with a judgement call on its effects.

Do you understand that I am trying to have this conversation in good faith? I read the thread without paying much attention to names. I’ve been awake since 2am and was responding only to the content of your reply to me. By using words like “conveniently” you imply that I’m somehow intentionally dodging your points which does not suggest you believe I’m discussing this in good faith. My post clarified my position because you seemed to think I was making a legal argument. Furthermore, one part of your post trailed off into nothing, so I wasn’t even sure what you were trying to say with that. It took me like three hours to compose that one response so you posted later stuff while I was in the process of composing. (Tapatalk has no preview function, which means if you’ve replied since THIS post… I haven’t seen it.)

Based on your latest response, it occurred to me I had misunderstood your point, but you were still rude in expressing it, and not much has changed on that measure. If you had read my comments in the zillions of threads on this subject over the last 11 years, you would see that I very much agree with you on the subject of context being critical. I’m a shades of grey kind of person and that might be part of the disconnect here. I’ve no interest in making monsters of men, but rather to illuminate the dynamics at play here. Your work with survivors is laudable, but it bears consideration that you might be working with a biased sample… If you work in law, I’m guessing you are interacting with and learning about people who report crimes, which is a relatively small contingent of sexual assault victims - and women in general. My view is broader and includes things that aren’t technically criminal but contribute to the culture that allows sexual assault to happen, and, critically, that contribute to victim psychology in the aftermath. Which is to say, I understand why this woman felt like she had been sexually assaulted even when she wasn’t. I also understand why Aziz Ansari is probably confused and horrified right now. I feel no cognitive dissonance in reconciling both perspectives because I understand the dynamics at play. I think it is completely possible that woman was genuinely traumatized by a legally consensual sexual encounter, and that Aziz Ansari genuinely thought she was into it. I believe this dynamic plays out a lot more than people realize when we talk about the prevalence of sexual assault.

While we can’t prevent sadistic rapists from harming people, I believe, fully and completely, that we can prevent what happened to these two people from occurring, and it comes down to shifting cultural norms. I’m not dismissing or ignoring the law so much as attempting to broaden the dialog. The clearly illegal stuff is at the extreme end of one spectrum of a complicated web of gender dynamics and cultural norms. Further down that spectrum is questionably legal stuff, then from there we have tragic miscommunications of the nature of the OP, victim-blaming, ignorant attitudes toward sex and women, all of which cause harm. Working on those not illegal things will reduce the occurrence of the illegal things like sexual assault. From my perspective, you and I are on the same team.

These threads inevitably devolve into predictable directions, among them : its not illegal so it’s no big deal, Aziz Ansari is the scum of the earth, no, it’s her fault, women need to speak up, etc etc. That’s well and fine, I’m just going for a different tack here. My intent was not to disparage anyone else’s comments in this thread, but to offer a new perspective - hey, we could actually prevent this sort of thing with a little effort.

As for unequal power, I’m not talking about superior-subordinate or Hollywood stuff, I’m talking about physical strength. The physically weakest person in a sexual exchange is normally in a position of relative vulnerability compared to his or her partner. It’s not a matter of the strongest doing anything wrong, it’s just a matter of fact. When you’re in a sexual situation you don’t want to be in, you’re in the position of hoping the person making those advances will not fuck your shit up. I see a striking lack of empathy for that basic fact, most commonly among men who have never experienced it. It’s not like women only notice this when we are being assaulted… We are always aware of it, it’s just a fact of life. It influences how many of us perceive and act in these situations. It affects us whether our partner is well meaning or not. There’s a certain level of resistance to an unwanted sexual advance, that varies from person to person, at which point the autonomic nervous system takes over and the freeze response kicks in. This is an established biological phenomenon not just among humans but all animals who feel threatened. It is exceedingly common in sexual assault. The woman in the OP’s case describes a very similar response. This is a really bad dynamic to have play out and I think it would be great if we could avoid it.

How closely the law and social mores ought to be related is a fascinating question. I really think I would have a lot to learn from your experience and I’m always disappointed when you get combative. I don’t give a damn about winning an argument, okay? Maybe for health care, or politics, or other stuff, but not this. So if you have something to teach, and you can do it respectfully, I’m listening.

I just love how nearly every controversial issue addressed on this board or frankly, anywhere else in cyber socialism, degrades to hair-splitting words and mind-reading interpretations. In this particular case there certainly is no clear “lack of consent” OR anything done “against anyone’s will.” Look it up and read the definitions for sexual assault from any legitimate source you choose: Case law, Websters, Wikipedia, whatever. The scenario information publicly available regardless of it’s veracity, simply does not meet the criteria in this case.

The only disagreement is between the minds of people who will always view this issue as a cut 'n dried, black-or white decision based on hearsay slanted towards their own personal bias on the topic.

** Spice Weasel **, you’re incredibly good at articulating these ideas in a rational accessible way.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

The law is one cultural norm among many. It only becomes necessary to talk about legal norms when legal processes are likely to be invoked. The process determines which laws apply.

None have been invoked here and don’t seem likely to be.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

That statement applies clearly to both sides here, although I don’t think the two sides are that polarized in this thread. I think most people here are falling somewhat in the middle. I, myself, agree both with AK84 and Spice Weasel.

God I hope so. I’ve enjoyed your contributions. I disagree with Jammin’ up there; this thread to me has seemed fairly moderate in tone overall without much knee-jerking. Maybe I’m just used to the Pit.

Either way, I feel better now. Civil discussions, yes we can!

Banquet Bear

The comment of mine you had responded to was about Frylock’s declaration that taking someone’s hand and moving it towards you genitals is by definition assault. I will stand by the comment that in the context of an in process sexual interaction, in which people have already had oral sex (which is difficult to do with hands touching things), consent for taking someone’s hand and guiding it to where it is desired is not “assault” and requires no additional explicit consent.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

Oral sex does not mean consent for intercourse. He requested it, more than once, and she did not give that consent, more than once.

And consent given for one activity can be withdrawn. So what qualifies as withdrawal of consent already given? Does not moving your hands as much qualify? Does saying “go slow” qualify? Does becoming less enthusiastic qualify? I posit that in that context one who wishes the consented to activity to stop is best advised to clearly communicate their withdrawal of consent with a “I want to stop this” or a “no”.

In the specific possibly hypothetical case we are discussing, what was done that she had not consented to?

So do I. The more you try to learn about something, the more you realize how complicated it is, and by extension, how little you know. It’s not coincidence that the things I’m most certain of, I know the least about. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Once you’ve engaged in sexual activity with someone, the bar is raised for what constitutes withdrawal of consent.

OK. Not sure exactly what you are disagreeing with, but do you also disagree with my 1st post in this thread?

Hint: This thread is really more about human nature in the context of heterosexual relationships and analytical discussion thereof - not criminal law. That part is just the ticket to social media churn.

This is very disappointing. I like Aziz and the guy literally wrote a book on Modern dating (which I read and enjoyed) and was way ahead of the curve on the harassment culture in Hollywood. He did an arc about it on his show that was made around year before it became front page news.

I read the article and he seemed like a grabby creep who should have known better.