I have been very clear that not all assaults are criminal, and not all assaults are ones it makes sense to complain about. I request that you and other readers not continue to ignore this.
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In case anyone missed it (and maybe I missed someone already mentioning it in this thread), there is a response by Aziz Ansari that has been added to the article.
I scanned the comments quickly, so may have missed someone else mentioning this. Don’t go to someone’s apartment right away. Or their hotel. Or even their dorm room. Unless you really, really trust your instincts OR you are willing to go all the way right then and there! Yeah it’s really old fashioned. I learned by experience. When I was 20 I never thought twice about it, now that I’m 50 and a control freak about territory, I think about it a lot.
Doesn’t matter what gender anyone is, although this sort of rushed behavior may happen a lot more with males. I have had many dating experiences exactly like the one described in this article. Almost all of them were influenced by who owned the territory. This includes getting in someone else’s car. If it’s your home, your car, better but not ideal. Receiving someone in your own home especially if you live alone, or are alone at that particular time, is actually an intimate act of trust and some people get the wrong message, or exploit the assumption of freedom in an unpleasant way. If it’s someone you don’t know, don’t have any context in common, well, see above about being ready to do it all.
I took a lot of women’s self-defense and so the notion of having to throw someone off me and kick them in the teeth is something I’m actually prepared to do. Better of course to never get to that point. I would still blame myself afterwards for not having better sense, just as much as the next person.
Also don’t be alone with people who outweigh you by a lot. That girl who got raped by Mike Tyson all those years ago? She went to his hotel room on her own. Even with my training I could not stand up to a trained athlete like that. Tyson was dumb as well, and it cost him.
While I’m on the topic, don’t become incapacitated by alcohol, and don’t give someone a doobie in your house unless you KNOW they are experienced with the demon weed. I have had 2 well mannered guys launch straight into octopus mode immediately after toking. God was that ever awkward. NEVER AGAIN
This is all sad because I like sex as much as the next girl. Some guys would have had a great time if they’d been just a little less pushy about it. Pushiness turns me OFF in a New York second. And yet, someone grabbing my hand and putting it on their crotch just ruins the mood entirely.
I didn’t say that criminal activities are being described. That’s the whole point, the accusation is not supported by her own evidence.
But she clearly made the accusation. From the article:
Your point is not being ignored, it is being dismissed as a stupid idea.
The definition of assault for everyone else is that it is a criminal act. You seem to be seeking to redefine the word “assault” to mean “any kind of touching without explicit consent”, and presumably to then create subcategories of “non-criminal assault” and “criminal assault”. What on earth is the point, other than to confuse people and make them think you’re nuts when you describe CPR or accidentally brushing up against someone in a crowd as “assault”?
I’m trying to picture the described sequence of events happening to two non-famous people on a first date. Assume they are both of average emotional health–neither one is prone to, say, seeing someone for the first time and deciding they are soulmates, or such.
I can’t picture any of what is supposed to have happened in the account by ‘Grace’, occurring–except in the circumstances that one of the people is famous, and the other is a fan of the famous one. The actions she took and didn’t take, don’t make sense in a ‘first date between two non-famous people’ scenario.
Earlier in the thread it was suggested that the accuser, an avowed fan of Ansari, had hopes of a relationship with him–not merely a one-time, no-strings sex romp. To me this is the only reading that makes sense of what ‘Grace’ reports herself to have done. She hoped Ansari would be not only attracted to her, but would see how much she admired him–she hoped he would conclude ‘this is someone I want to have in my life.’
I think it matters that one person in the scenario was famous and one was a fan–because that changes the dynamic so radically from the ‘average man and average woman have a date’ concerns and issues we all have in this day and age.
Ansari didn’t commit assault, in my view. But he is guilty, I suspect, of having a pretty good idea that this woman was doing sex stuff with him out of a wish to form a long-term relationship with him. I suspect he is guilty of taking advantage of that delusion that she had (that he would become emotionally attached to her)–because he wanted some sexual stimulation. And there were many ways he could have rationalized doing that: she’s an adult; I never pretended to be looking for a relationship; etc.
I suspect, further, that many, many, many entertainment-industry celebrities have taken advantage of their fans in this way–and that those with consciences inevitably feel guilt about it. And that this is one reason for the high rate of substance abuse among show-biz ‘names.’
Maybe Ansari needs to be more upfront about his expectations for a date. Maybe he could avoid this sort of thing by saying bluntly: I am absolutely NOT looking for a relationship–but if you’re up for a one-time encounter, I’d enjoy your company.
If he (or any celebrity) were to say this routinely, of course, they’d get a lot less sex. So it may continue to be an issue.
No the definition of assault is not that it’s criminal. In fact I doubt the majority of people -here- would agree with you on that, even the ones who largely after with you about the Ansari thing.
My clarifications are being ignored, not dismissed, because people are proceeding as though I had never made them.
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I have also explained what the point is of emphasizing assault that is not criminal, twice now, and you’re ignoring that. So, whatever. Have a nice conversation with yourself I guess.
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Now that’s only the legal definition, of course. But do you seriously claim that in colloquial usage, the majority of people would agree that the term “assault” encompasses CPR? So let’s be clear, there is an accepted definition of the word, both legally and colloquially. An assault is a criminal act. You are advocating changing the current definition.
No, I have read your reasoning.
Your claim was that if we broaden the conventional definition of “assault” to encompass all physical contact that is not preceded by explicit consent (e.g. CPR, accidentally brushing up against someone), then it will make potential criminals more circumspect about their actions when touching people in a potentially criminal way.
Is that about right?
I disagree, I think that’s a stupid and confusing idea, and that a world where people are constantly paranoid about ever touching anyone is not a desirable outcome. Putting you in charge of the ethical and legal principles of consent in our society sounds like it would be similar to putting the TSA in charge of keeping us all safe from terrorism.
It is too confusing because people are too stupid. Never mind everything.
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And we come full circle to the point where I realize you are the person who started this thread. I’m sorry. I definitely read this thread all the way through last night, but it’s clear I didn’t process much of it at all. I’ve been really out of it since 2am this morning and have not slept since. I already had anxiety and this subject always hooks me when I’m late at night and stressed out. If my posts are weird, that’s… yes, let’s say that’s why.
Based on what I’ve managed to process I really find nothing objectionable about your posts and see no reason to argue. But I probably won’t be able to contribute meaningfully until I get some sleep.
Since she was interested in him, it seems likely that sometime during their date, before they went to his apartment, she put her hand on his hand or on his shoulder. If this was true, would you say that she assaulted him first?
If a crowded subway car jerks suddenly, and closely packed straphangers bang into each other, has there been a wave of assaults?
Why debase a perfectly good and well understood word?
Let’s be clear. This report is essentially one anonymous Yelp review of Ansari as a hook-up by someone who thought they were going to Alinea or Everest and … didn’t. The food started to taste a bit off, but they ate the entree anyway. But they declined coffee or dessert. Frustratingly the waiter kept trying to sell them on coffee and dessert before finally giving the check. And later a literal bad aftertaste. One star. A bad review … but it is just one anonymous Yelp review. Not enough to burn a restaurant to the ground over.
Okay, I go into areas I have no personal experience about but hey. Expect a hook up to be more attentive to your needs than their own and you’ll likely be disappointed. You want a good hook up experience anyway? Be prepared to (along the way) clearly express what you do and do not want to happen and ask for and listen to the same guidance. If the two do not overlap feel free to say this stops here at any point, whether you “feel pressured” or not.
"Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”
…the first time he moved her hand towards his penis no additional explicit consent was required. When she moved the hand away it was a clear sign she had removed consent. When he moved her hand again towards his dick he was doing it without her consent. And the third time. And the fourth time. And the fifth time.
Does that qualify as assault? Well it could. We would have to know more of course. I suspect, from a legal point of view, most prosecutors would not proceed on this. But whether or not the threshold for prosecution was reached, it is clear to me (based only on the information that we all have) that consent was withdrawn.
Yes moving his hand away qualifies as withdrawal of consent. She did that at least five times, according to the story she related to her friend.
Putting her hand on his dick: which she resisted every time he tried to do it.
In seriousness, that is a very good analogy of the situation, by far.
Ansari always creeped me out, so my first thought was “I KNEW IT” but after reading it over, it seems to just be remorse.
…that isn’t critical information at all. The critical part of the case was that the Court held that there was no defence of implied consent. It was suggested that the courts would not agree with my position. This case was an example of how they would.
This part of the article was important though: I didn’t quote it then, but I’ll quote it now:
A lot of those “myths and stereotypes” have raised their head in this thread.
Sorry, I get your don’t put yourself in a risky situation advice, but going into a someone’s apartment does not imply consent and even if consent is given a person has every right to change their mind at any point.
I’d actually read it the other way. Hook ups for recreational sex do happen all the time. Someone famous may be more used to others interested in using them for a quick bout of recreational sex just for the thrill of having done the deed with someone famous. Attracted not to them but to their fame. Or the fantasy image of them. Better than an autograph. Why just have a brush with fame? Rock stars are not the only one who have those with a groupie mentality who pursue them.
So the fact that after moving her hand away she used her hands to to hold his penis as she gave him head more than once to you means what about her consent to have her hand on his penis?
I just wanted to chime in with my take, which I’m surprised I don’t see (here and elsewhere) that much: I couldn’t follow the writing in the piece well enough to make a proper assessment of the night in question. It’s hard for me to bring the torches and pitchforks for something I can’t structurally follow. It sounded like a terrrrrrrrrrrible date and I can see where it’s possible that Aziz crossed this particular lady’s line, but I can’t judge exactly what was wrong or how wrong it was because the writing was disjointed and shoddy.
Having read dozens of these stories in the last few weeks/months, I appreciate editors and linear storytelling. I’d hate for this poor woman (who is clearly traumatized, rightly or wrongly) to not get my sympathy because the journalist who shared her story did a crap job, but that’s kind of what is happening here. And I’d hate for Aziz to get a pass if he is Creep Incarnate because a victim’s story isn’t articulate enough to get past my bullshit meter.
It’s a terrible story all around and because it was bungled, I don’t feel it can be properly resolved.
I am a huge Aziz fan, but I used to be a big Kevin Spacey fan. I can throw him overboard with the rest of the gropers and pervs, but I’m not going to based on this story. I feel terrible for the lady, but I can’t understand what was being said enough to give her more of the benefit of the doubt than him. I mean, I wouldn’t date him, but I’m not going to boycott him as things stand. And it’s a pretty big boycott list.
…why would you need to use your hands to have oral sex? From the timeline the oral sex happened twice. The first time was consensual. The second: I’m not so sure.
"Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”
Was this consent, or was it coercion? Do we accept that this is all just a game, and if you play it long enough you win?
Consent wasn’t explicit here. And we know this (if we accept her account) because between the first oral encounter and the second he attempted to move her hand to his penis and she rejected that at least five times. Consent at that stage had been revoked. If voluntarily putting your mouth on a penis was all that was required to “express consent” then rape and sexual assault would practically cease to become crimes.
I’m not saying that what Aziz did isn’t something that happens in the bedroom all of the time every single day all over the world. Because it does. And the fact that this happens all the time all over the world is problematic. And we should talk about it.