[B]The Godfather[/B] Sucks: A Legitimate Opinion?

Cafe Society
21

There are two manners issues and an aesthetics issue here. Since other people are responding to the aesthetics question, I’ll play Miss Manners and deal with the manners.

It is not polite to interrupt other people’s enjoyment purely to state that what the group is enjoying “sucks.” If you are not enjoying the group activity, either discretly enquire as to whether anyone else feels the same (“I’ve already seen this movie. Is there anything else on?”) or politely excuse yourself from the activity (“I’m sorry, I’ve never liked this movie. I think I’ll go for a walk.”)

However, it’s also often considered rude in ordinary circumstances to tell someone that their opinion is flat-out wrong. It is considered even more rude to actually prove that their opinion is wrong.

This is something academics and teachers have a hard time understanding, since of course vigorous debate and careful analysis are their jobs. Yet most people do not debate for a living, and most people don’t debate very well. The average Joe may enjoy a good bull session now and then, but he’s simply unprepared for the assault of a well thought-out argument. An invitation to debate (“Why does it suck?”) is thus taken by many people as an act of aggression.

For example, when the average Joe says something like, “You know that face on Mars? There’s a big coverup at NASA to eliminate all the evidence,” he’s expecting either agreement–“Really? Cool!”–or polite disinterest–“Uh huh. Pass the sugar.”

Joe is not expecting a detailed rebuttal, complete with cites and footnotes. If some wiseass should confront Joe’s innocent (to him) comment with a barrage of counterargument, Joe’s going to feel that the wiseass is trying make him look bad. Why else would the wiseass make such an effort?

It’s like an amateur tennis player playing with a pro. If the pro plays his best, the amateur player won’t be able to return a single serve. The amateur won’t have any fun, and will suspect that the pro is just trying to make him look bad. Thus it behooves the pro to either politely decline games with amateurs, or to play below his usual form, to give the amateur a sporting chance.

The bottom line: Christmas with the relatives is a manners quagmire, and sometimes it’s better to just take one for the team. :slight_smile:

22

Evil Captor are you suggesting the Godfather is somehow an apology for criminal behavior? That it promotes violence and thuggery? I don’t see it.

For me, one of the most appealing things about the movie is that the characters are presented as three-dimensional human beings with conflicting elements to their personalities. In my experience that is how most real people are. For instance, Michael Corleone commits (or commands) numerous horrendous murders including that of his own brother. Yet the only reason he becomes involved in the criminal activity is out of love for his family.

I guess my point is that the depiction of crime and violence does not equal the glorification of crime and violence.

23

In part, I think it depends on your definition of “sucks.” Gee, can anyone think of who we might ask? :wink:

I tend to consider the term indicative of poor quality, rather than personal dislike. So I would argue that the Godfather exhibits many factors, such as well-above average acting, writing, filming, that preclude characterizing it as poor quality.

I do believe it is possible to make qualitative comparisons concerning art. For that reason, I consider it valid to say that the Godfather is a better film than FGF. A wrinkle, however, might be the context. If FGF only aspires to a certain goal, it is unfair to compare it to a work which, even tho in the same medium, aims otherwise.

So, can I say a Renoir is better than a Pollock is better than a Lichtenstein is better than comic book art? Well, yes and no.

24

I admire the first two “Godfather” films greatly, but I happen to think Evil Captor has a point. Why do you think so many REAL-life gangster loved those movies so much? Because it made them look pretty darn cool! As many others have observed, those movies SHAPED Mafia mores and behavior as much as they reflected them.

Now, was the Corleone family portrayed as saintly and virtuous? No- but they ARE portrayed as being better than everyone else… or, at least, no worse than anyone else.

The police are shown as corrupt… so presumably, it was okay to murder McCluskey. The studio boss who won’t hire Johnny Fontaine is sleeping with teenyboppers… so, presumably, it’s okay to kill his horse and threaten his life. The Senator from Nevada is a pervert and a killer, so presumably we should root for Michael Corleone to beat the Senate panel investigating him (politicians are slimeballs- who are THEY to investigater Michael? For all his faults, at least he’s not boffing young girls).

I DON’T go as far as Evil Captor, but I understand his point. “The Godfather” doesn’t necessarily endorse the Mafia, but it DOES seem to be saying, “Hey, they’re decent guys with a code of honor… and they’re no worse than anybody else in our society, really.”

25

True, but you didn’t say she was mentally stunted. I AM SURE SHE KNOWS that rudeness wouldn’t win her any points.

She just obviously didn’t care.

That, in itself, speaks volumes.

26

Another comment on aesthetics and tastes.

I am 41 years old. The Godfather is usually my answer to the question “what is your favorite film”, for many reasons mentioned above and others not mentioned. (“Favorite” does not necessarily equal “finest ever made”, but rather is a combination of “finest” and “delivers the most enjoyment over repeated viewings”. Although I consider The Godfather to be a strong contender either way.) Among my other favorites are Das Boot, Leon, Being There, Pulp Fiction, Taxi Driver… I like to think I have decent taste and an eye for quality, but plain-old entertainment is a priority too.

My wife is 28. We are of roughly equal intelligence and education, and wildly different life experiences. Her favorite film, when she is asked, is always Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. She likes Pulp Fiction for certain entertaining sequences, and seemed to enjoy Leon as a high-quality action film, but finds The Godfather to be rather slow and boring, and lacking both “a story” and “an ending”. Likewise all the other films on my list.

It is really very tempting to discard her opinions as those of somebody who “just doesn’t know better” until I “teach” her to appreciate the kinds of films I like, but the fact is she likes the kind of movies most people like: movies with easy-to-follow, linear stories and a satisfying sense of resolution at the end, movies whose tensions are right there on the surface and are illustrated with plenty of action, plot-driven movies that mostly draw in the viewer by promising to answer the question “so what happened?”. And there’s really nothing intrinsically wrong with movies like that; by thinking that there is, I become more of a snob than I’m willing to become. And I can see how The Godfather IS slow and boring from a certain perspective. Maybe, in that regard, it does “suck”.

This topic is difficult to discuss in any detail without sounding snobbish, self-important, or worst of all, um, “condescendingly pretending to be open-minded while slumming” or something awful like that - please try not to read too much of that into my post, (unless I really deserve it and just don’t realize). My assertion is just that there are different kinds of movies, and different kinds of movie viewers, and neither is intrinsically “better” than the other, or is automatically granted immunity from the dubious honor of “suckage”. I’d personally have made a different choice of words (or kept my mouth shut), but that’s the “manners” question, not the “aesthetics and tastes” question.

27

Whoa there. I never said her opinion was wrong. Her opinion would be that she didn’t like the film, she didn’t find it enjoyable. I never denied her right to say that. My issue is her assertion that The Godfather “sucked.” I take “sucked” to mean that it is of poor quality, that is, poorly written, directed, acted. I don’t think anyone can legitimately claim that any of these are true of the first 2 Godfather movies.

You can say it disturbed you b/c you felt it glorified organized crime; you can say the subject matter bores or depresses or horrifies you. You can say that something about Brando rubs you the wrong way and you can’t stand watching him. All of these are within the realm of taste. However, when you’re judging quality and trying to be remotely objective, you can’t say something is poorly crafted when it clearly is not.

Also, as for The Godfather glorifying or romanticizing organized crime, I didn’t see it that way. I think Michael Corleone’s hypocrisy is clearly depicted. No one in the movie is happy for more than a few minutes onscreen. The reason so many people admire the characters in that movies is that they’re played by Pacino, Brando, DeNiro, Duvall, Caan… of course they’re cool. They look good, they have well-written dialogue, etc. Also, people generally like movies that are about people like themselves, only better looking and better scripted. If those people looked past the surface, they’d see the corruption and misery that pervades the Corleone family. Puzo and Coppola did a great job of bringing that out subtly but effectively.

As for the rudeness of the future SIL, I don’t know what to make of it. Maybe it was a sign that she feels comfortable enough to say what she thinks; however, she was incredibly offended that I responded to her as I did, so much so that she made a federal project out of it. You can’t have it both ways: free to run your mouth, but demanding immunity from any reaction you get. Am I wrong?

And I really used to like her.

In-laws. Can’t live with 'em, can’t shoot 'em.

28

I guess I was trying to work from a broader definition of “suckage”, one that includes “did not successfully entertain”. I must admit I am playing devil’s advocate here to some extent - as much to challenge my own conception of what constitutes quality as to challenge anybody else’s. If in the process I seemed to cast you as a person who denies others’ rights to their opinions, I apologize; that is clearly not the case and I didn’t mean to imply it in any way.

29

It’s not done AS an apology, but it has the effect of making the Mafiosa look much better than they actually are. Michael Corleone’s nobility is kinda farfetched when you look at the enterprises his “family” engages in. It may not have been intended as a propaganda piece, as “Will” was, but I suspect that it’s lack of overt propagandistic intent only increased its effectiveness as propaganda.

While not promoting violence and thuggery, it definitely places the people who commit it on a much higher moral plane than they deserve to be on.

30

It all boils down to “sucks” means “Didn’t like it” - I truly doubt she actually has <i>thought</i> about the direction, camera work, block, dialog, shading and set design.

Of course, if she said “The Godfather sucks, becasue blah blah blah” that would be different. Then it would be time to take her to the mattresses.

31

Tell your brother: “Leave the fiancee. Take the cannoli.”

32

Rubystreak said:

But you can have them garroted by a capo…:smiley:

33

I’m with you, Ruby.

34

H8_2_W8, what I actually said to my brother is, “Say a Hail Mary, Fredo.”

35

Since nobody seems to have pitched in with the obvious bit of, supposedly fairly objective, information, let it be noted that Godfather I and II were no.4 in last year’s Sight & Sound’s critics’ poll and no.2 in the directors’ poll. Both a bit high for my taste (not to mention the suspicion that they rigged the vote by combining the nominations). But then I’m a The Conversation man, myself.

36

You probably are hoping for a “no” here, but…I think the rules are unjust if they’re exactly as you state them above. I’m more concerned about the fact that you won’t let them say it doesn’t make sense than that it sucks(although not allowing them to express a negative opinion is disconcerting as well). Some times things don’t make sense to a student, and to ban them from telling you that they aren’t making sense of it is a disservice to them. It’s as though you’re saying " I don’t care if you are having trouble understanding this, so don’t tell me." You may not mean it that way, but if I were your student I’d probably take it that way. If the rule was they can’t say “it sucks/it doesn’t make sense” without qualifying why they feel that way it would feel less fascist.

Sure, we can grant cannon that sort of immunity if we want everyone to be sheep and worship those works without putting any effort into forming their own opinions about those books and movies considered cannon…It puts a hell of a damper on classroom debates, though.

As for The Godfather I have no opinion on it. It looks too boring to attempt to watch.

37

I’m sensing an odd tendency for people to assume that I’m saying what they think I’m saying, instead of reading what I’m actually saying. Let me try again.

Shakespeare’s work does make sense. It does. A student can say he doesn’t understand it, he can ask for clarification, he can say that he doesn’t like a story-- hell, he can and should point out flaws in the text, b/c they do exist. However, it is simply false to say that Shakespeare doesn’t make sense. I am an English teacher; I want my students to be exacting in their word choices.

It’s as though you’re saying " I don’t care if you are having trouble understanding this, so don’t tell me."

Hell, that’s not even remotely close to what I was saying. “It doesn’t make sense TO ME” is NOT the same as “It doesn’t make sense.” Surely you see that? A request for greater clarification is NOT the same as a scornful dismissal of the Bard with a simple “this crap makes no sense and is not worth learning.” Surely you see that?

Sure, we can grant cannon that sort of immunity if we want everyone to be sheep and worship those works without putting any effort into forming their own opinions about those books and movies considered cannon…It puts a hell of a damper on classroom debates, though.

First of all, it’s canon, not cannon. It doesn’t go boom. Second, we can grant canon immunity from “this sucks” without granting it blanket immunity from criticism or scrutiny. Approaching a canonical text with respect and giving it a fair chance before dismissing it is not too much to ask. How about also considering the possibility that it is simply a gap between your taste/ sensibility and the work that causes your failure to enjoy it, rather than blaming a text that a hell of a lot of other, pretty smart people, thought was good? It’s too easy to dismiss the text-- then you don’t have to do any actual work, or challenge yourself. Right?

I feel like you’ve twisted my words. I never said anything that resembles your version of what I said.

As for your attitude towards The Godfather-- I see you don’t want to challenge yourself here either. It’s too bad.

Baa baa,
Rubystreak

38

Well, first of all, you SIL is an idiot. I’m standing by that. The Godfather is an beautiful and immensely influential film. The success, almost univeral acclaim, and constant popularity of the film is sufficient proof of objective quality.

Second, she’s a bitch for getting pissed at you for responding to her conversational bait. Saying “X sucks” is an invitation to discuss the merits of X. She’s free to say Godfather sucked, but she should be able to explain why it sucked. If she can’t, she shouldn’t have brought it up in the first place. When you’re in a social situation, the goal is conversation, not pontification.* She’s also arrogant for expecting everyone else to stop watching the film just to suit her.

The same goes in a classroom, at least as far as the students go. You don’t need to be taught how to hold an opinion, but you do need to be taught how to properly express one. Which is the entire point of English class in the first place. As for saying “X doesn’t make sense,” in a social situation, I think the “to me” is automatically implied. However, in the context of an English class, it’s entirely appropriate to demand more precise language.

[sub]*For bonus fun, read that sentence in the voice of Jesse Jackson[/sub]

39

One other thought- did this woman’s complaint really have anything to do with the quality of the movie itself? That is, was she REALLY saying “this movie is terrible, it has no redeeming value, and I can’t understand why anybody likes it”?

Or was she saying, “Come ON, guys, it’s CHRISTMAS! Is this really the kind of movie you want to watch on Christmas? How about something lighter or cheerier?”

40

Astorian, I think she was expressing annoyance and distaste. The sense I got was that she couldn’t understand why we were watching the Godfather because it wasn’t so great. There were plenty other rooms in the 4 story house that she could have gone to-- but I think she’s used to my brother catering to her wishes in these cases. Which is fine except when 7 other people are involved.