[B]The Godfather[/B] Sucks: A Legitimate Opinion?

Cafe Society
1

OK, I have finally found a place where I can get an objective opinion on this. On Christmas Day, like good people of Italian descent, my cousins and their spouses, my brother and his fiancee, and I were all watching The Godfather. Seems like fun, right?

Well, the fiancee pipes up and says, “I hate the Godfather. It sucks.”

I said, “Honey, you have no taste. You can say you don’t like The Godfather, but you cannot say that it sucks. Empirically, it does not suck; it simply does not appeal to you.”

She contended that it was her opinion that The Godfather was a terrible movie that sucked and wanted my brother to change the channel (despite the fact that there were 8 other people in the room who were enjoying the movie). She herself enjoys romantic comedies, preferably starring Julia Roberts. But I digress…

My question: Can a person legitimately assert that The Godfather sucks? Was I impinging on her right to have and express an opinion, however unpopular? If so, I need to apologize. OTOH, is it rude to say that a movie 8 people are enjoying sucks, your god-given right to an opinion notwithstanding?

Let me take this a step further. When I teach my students Shakespeare, I tell them they are forbidden to say, “This sucks” AND “this doesn’t make sense.” They may say that they don’t like it, but they’d better be able to articulate why, and give evidence. Am I justified in making this rule, or am I just another fascist teacher?

I guess what this really is is an argument about Canon–once something is canonical, is it automatically immune from the slings and arrows of “it sucks”?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

2

Of course canon isn’t immune to criticism. I don’t like some of Shakespeare’s plays, I detest “The Catcher in the Rye” (which is canon nowadays, I think), and I don’t like either F. Scott Fitzgerald or Ernest Hemmingway.

I think ultimately, when you say, “This movie/book/play sucks”, what you’re saying is “I dislike this movie/book/play”. You’re right to make your students say why they dislike something in Shakespeare (or like it); analysis of literature and plays is part of an English class, it seems to me. “This doesn’t make sense”, on the other hand, just means “I don’t understand this material”, and I don’t see what’s wrong with saying that.

As for your brother’s fiancee, she had the right to dislike the movie, but not to force any of you to change the channel to something she liked, unless you were watching Godfather III. In that case, she not only has the right to change the channel, but the duty to.

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Am I the only one who looked in on this post with the intention of typing “shouldn’t this be in Cafe Society?” :slight_smile:

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Godfather 3 wasn’t that bad. Sure, it wasn’t anywhere near the level of the first 2, but it wasn’t anywhere near a genuinly shitty film like Freddy Got Fingered.

As for the OP’s question, I would say that it is a legimate opinion to say what you felt about any movie/book/etc., but I also believe that if you are going to say “This sucks/rocks/etc”, you should also say why you think that.

If you don’t like Gangster movies, or if you didn’t like the characters, or the violence, then fine. However, provide a reason why you didn’t like it.

So, no, you aren’t out of line insisting that she back up her assertion, with the sole exception being “I didn’t enjoy it”. Rather hard to argue about that, but it doesn’t make it a bad movie.

I try to respect other’s opinions in this regard, but the other side of the coin is that they have to do the same. Mutual respect and realizing others have different tastes then you do (Some people seem to have a problem grasping this).

If she doesn’t like this, then remind of that if you find yourself not enjoying one of her favorite movies.

I don’t feel it’s rude to say “I don’t like this movie” when other people are watching it, but it is to ask everyone else the change the channel. You don’t like it, you can feel free to walk out. Again, if I know said person don’t like said movie, I’d also try to warn them ahead of time or pick something that they would like to watch.

5

Although criticism is often subjective, a work should be judged by how effectively the creator presents his/her vision. I believe The Godfather is brilliant in this respect, both in terms of the story telling and the atmosphere of the movie. Even if someone dislikes “gangster” movies, they should be able to recognize the quality of the production.

By contrast, consider Julia Roberts. She is neither comedic, nor romantic. Therefore, by definition, any “Romantic Comedy” featuring her must suck.:wink:

6

Do not listen to someone whose critical vocabulary is more or less limited to “sucks”.

7

Moderator’s note:

Since the overall topic is arty-type criticism, off to Cafe Society…
TVeblen,
IMHO mod

8

Yes. Saying it just to make your Godfather-loving buddy shoot steam from his ears is a legitimate purpose, isn’t it?

:smiley:

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No. One can only assert that they don’t like it.

It was the highest grossing film of it’s day. It won the Acadamy Awawrd for best picture of the year. It’s pretty much the standard by which all other films in the genre are judged. The American Film Institute ranks it 3rd on the all-time list. It’s been 30 years and it’s still familiar to put-near everybody and his brother.

10

Tell her, “Never go against the family.”

11

Anyone can say that they like or dislike anything and need give no further explanation ( though they may want to if they hope for other people to attach any weight to their opinions). This is a quite different thing from saying that a film or book, say, is bad. This requires ( if the opinion is to be taken seriously) an analysis of the work in question. It is possible to acknowledge that something is good but dislike it. Equally, it is possible to enjoy something greatly without needing to claim that it is an underrated masterpiece.

This leads naturally to the question of how we might try to decide that something is good without merely taking a poll of some suitable group of people. The usual way is to formulate some set of criteria and then say that a film is more or less good according as it satisfies these criteria to a greater or lesser degree. The most important of these criteria ( by general consensus) is unity or coherence. That is, the various elements should work together as closely as possible. There should be as few shots as possible which serve only to drive forward the narrative.

To take a hoary example, consider the shower scene in Psycho. SPOILERS AHEAD Significant elements of this scene have been prefigured earlier ( and will be repeated later). The film has many shots of downward motion ( the rain as Marion drives, the water of the shower, Marion sliding down after the attack, the detective falling down the staircase) and these are balanced by the film’s final shot of the car being raised. The slashing dagger has appeared earlier in the form of the windscreen wipers of Marion’s car and the beaks of Norman’s collection of stuffed birds. Finally ( for my post, certainly not the film) the film is full of Freudian images: the drain of the shower is placed alongside a shot of Marion’s mouth as vaginal symbols; these are metaphorically raped by the Norman’s phallic knife. It is considerations like these that lead to films being declared good or great independently of whether or not any individual happens to like them.

12

Tell her Moe Green thought the Godfather sucked too.

13

She is allowed to say whatever she wishes.

For better or worse, what she says and how she chooses to say it, will only reflect her intellect, compassion, etc etc etc, or lack there of.

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Jabba, you make some excellent points, especially in ponting out that it’s possible to enjoy a movie even though it’s “bad” (by the criteria you stated above), and to dislike a movie even though it’s “good”. The Godfather is right in there for me- I recognize that it’s a well-done film, a good story, good acting, good script, etc. I just don’t like it.

Re: the OP, I think the woman in question has every right in the world to like or dislike whatever she pleases, and while your students may be expected to provide a coherent reason behind their likes and dislikes, your future SIL is under no obligation to do so. One could argue that a truly intelligent person with a fine analytical mind would be duty-bound to provide you with their analysis on why they feel something sucks. But in everyday life, you’d be a fool to expect that out of everyone who voices an opinion.

In truth, sometimes some things just rub some people the wrong way, and there’s no clear explanation for it. Maybe the SIL is like this about The Godfather. I’d be hard put myself to explain why I don’t like the film. I just don’t.

As to whether or not it was rude of her to say something sucks when it’s clear many people present do not share her views, well, I can’t say about that either. On the one hand, I’m uncomfortable with people being unable to express their opinion for fear of offending the majority. OTOH, there may be a fine line there. I suppose it would have been better if she’d just said she didn’t particularly care for the film, and maybe left the room if she just couldn’t take it anymore. Insisting on changing the channel goes beyond that, though- in some things, majority must rule.

15

I wouldn’t say The Godfather sucks, but I think it is absolutely ridiculous to have it on any top 10 list, much less #3 at AFI or #1 at IMDB.com. It’s a good movie, it’s just simply not that outstanding.

If I had to do a Top Movie list of my own it might find its way into the top 50. That, of course, is just my humble opinion and I realize that the vast majority of people disagree with me :).

16

when was there ever a rule against being rude?

live and let live people

17

Oh, I don’t know… if you plan on becoming a member of said family, rudeness might not be your best shot at endearing yourself. People were enjoying themselves watching The Godfather-- it’s not like we were watching Faces of Death or Ishtar or something. I don’t care if the likes the movie or not, honestly. It’s not my concern. However, it did make me think she was being a bit bratty about it, esp. when she had no interest or ability to defend her assertion.

Bottom line: The Godfather doesn’t suck. It is a well-crafted piece of cinema. It would be like looking at a piece of baroque furniture and saying it sucks b/c it doesn’t please you aestethically. There is an esoteric but crucial difference b/w personal taste and literary judgement.

There are plenty of high quality things I don’t like. Miles Davis’ music comes to mind. I don’t like his stuff. Would I ever in a million years say it sucked b/c of my inability to enjoy it? No, b/c that would be ignorant of me, and supremely arrogant, as if my taste were the ultimate arbiter of quality. I recognize that it is a deficiency in my aestetic sensibility that prevents me from liking it; I admit that I am a philistine in this matter. Add to that the fact that it would be egregiously rude of me to say loudly that Bitches Brew sucked while someone was listening to it and enjoying it. Would smack a bit of sour grapes, methinks.

18

Well, I don’t think it applies to Shakespeare, but it’s certainly possible for something to suck because it doesn’t make sense. See, e.g., On Deadly Ground, which sucks for several reasons, not the least of which is that the plot is just fucking stupid.

19

The Godfather does in fact suck.

It’s a very well-crafted piece of cinema, great acting and script and so forth, but it has the effect of mythologizing thugs, goons and murderers. I would compare it to Leni Rifenstahl’s “Triumph of the Will” by all accounts a very well-crafted piece of cinema that served the purpose of advancing Nazi ideology. It sucks, too, however well made it was.

20

I found this post to be pretty funny, on one hand you outright say you are not allowed to say something sucks, yet say FGF is shitty. I see no reason why you think that like you assert. FTR I enjoyed FGF and hated The Godfather. I found the story boring, dragged out, the characters dull and not well acted, in short I barely remember this movie at all and happy that I don’t.

This is almost the same argument that one hears about everything from the Beatles, Shakespeare, Citizen Cane etc. It’s all opinion and nothing else, just because 5 billion people say it’s the best doesn’t make it so since there is no such thing.