Wow. Considering all the fuss, I’ll just postpone my toilet-training debate for another day.
Autz…so what? You’re probably right (some of the time). But, big deal! Are you saying, after everything all the other posters have said, that formula feeding is some form of child abuse? That we need government intervention to produce smarter babies? There are other ways to that end. I think the Nazis were working on it about 60 years ago. Do you really want the government telling you what you can and can’t eat?
Autz…so what? You’re probably right (some of the time). But, big deal! Are you saying, after everything all the other posters have said, that formula feeding is some form of child abuse? That we need government intervention to produce smarter babies? There are other ways to that end. I think the Nazis were working on it about 60 years ago. Do you really want the government telling you what you can and can’t eat?
People scream for a cite, and when given one scream “so what?”
It is a public health issue. All of the same arguements against having formula by prescription could also be made against requiring children to ride in car seats.
“It’s my choice whether I want my baby to ride in a car seat. Big Brother butt out!”
“I never rode in a car seat as a child and look how healthy I am!”
“Poor people could never afford car seats and are you going to force me to pay more taxes to make them widely available???”
But people don’t scream about the laws that force us to put our babies in safe car seats, because we realize it’s a public health issue.
More breast fed babies would actually save money because “Additional cost of bottle fed baby over cost of breastfed baby in the first year of life: $1,435.00” cite http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/7503/BFSAVING.HTML
and because a high percent of women who formula feed are poor and more likely to be on welfare, WIC, medicare etc, this money comes from taxpayer pocket in many cases.
Sorry it took me so long to get back, looks like it’s been quite a party!
autz, WAY BACK in the thread, you made a comment about insulin being a prescription medication. Is it? I seem to remember another thread (about airport security?) where some mentioned that they couldn’t produce a scrip for their needles or insulin, because they didn’t have one.
I must get over to the Pit, sounds like fun.
For starters, I didn’t ask for a cite. I don’t need one. Breast milk is probably better for a lot of children. But this ISN’T a public health issue! Any more than eating Doritos is a public health issue! What you’re talking about is personal preference and choice. The formula-fed children of the world don’t need to be saved. They need the butt-inskis of the world to butt the hell out of every friggin’ parental decision people make anymore. And I’ll bet you a nickel if I went through your house, I’d find things that are inherently MUCH more dangerous than baby formula, just waiting to ruin the brains and lives of today’s youth. Christ…get over it already. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There are many more important children’s health issues out there for you to crusade for.
Autz,
Can’t get to your first article, its subscription.
The second article is claiming, after adjusting for variables (although the summary didn’t include which variables or the methodology), and whole THREE IQ points. You want to send the breast police to my house over THREE IQ points. (Oh, yeah - there is the fewer colds thing, and the allergy thing, and the “bonding” thing).
Those three IQ points, I’m calling my mom. That’s the whole reason I haven’t won a Nobel prize. (Or maybe it was the hot dogs, or too much TV, or bad public schools, or maybe, just maybe, I’ve been too darn lazy my entire life to apply myself and I should stop blaming my mom).
Now, I think the 11 points with low birthweight babies is significant - and more significant given the disadvantages a low birthweight baby has to begin with. Makes me feel bad for my adopted son, who was low birthweight, never (AFAIK) breastfed, and who knows what his birthmom did while pregnant. However, he seems to be congetively on track (if not setting any performance records) - but, who knows, breastmilk might have made him Einstein. However, its the premies who have the most challenges breastfeeding. Women who sucessfully breastfeed premies and the premies who succeed - which may be an indication of cognative ability in itself - that the baby was able to latch on and “get it” - deserve kudos. But the women who don’t succeed don’t deserve blame - it is, by most accounts, a very difficult task.
This just in. I was reading the CNN web site and they had this article on an about-to-be-published study in the Journal of the American Medical Association.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/05/07/breast.feeding.intelligence.ap/index.html
"Those who had been breast-fed for seven to nine months scored an average of about six points higher on IQ tests than those whose mothers said they nursed for less than one month. "
This effect lasts far into adulthood, not just during childhood as other studies have shown.
OK, thanks for the statistics autz; I think the causal link will be harder to prove, but maybe I’m wrong about that; anyway, for now, I think you need to concentrate on answering some of the suggestions about other foodstuffs that should be policed.
Ok, so breastfeeding is, in many, perhaps even MOST cases, preferable to formula.
Please point out to me why, exactly, formula HURTS THE BABY. Please note that there is a difference between “not being as good” and “CAUSING THE CHILD HARM.” Omission vs. commission.
I do not believe that the reasons autz has given are good enough to mandate creating yet another government agency, taking relatively minor child-care decisions out of those who know the child and their own position best - namely, the parents, and illegalizing the sale of something that is not shown to be harmful.
Autz,
Do you want to be required to submit your weaning strategy to your doctor as well? How about the County Health Department? You know, the choices you make in every stage of your child’s development should be reviewed by competent professionals, like the school system, right? I mean these are public health issues. Why stop at breast feeding, we have excellent evidence on what elements of nutrition children need, and which are harmful. What matters the concept of freedom, this is a public health issue!
Tris
autz: There’s a difference between putting up a citation which backs up part of what you said and putting up a citation which supports the assertion you made in the OP. So breastfeeding is better. Granted. Folks here have agreed to that. So, where’s the support for the prescription requirement, other than from your WAAssertion?
There is very convincing evidence that nine months of breast feeding significantly increases adult IQ scores. (An 11 point increase amounts to about two-thirds of a standard deviation.)
**
However . . .
This is probably not, despite what some hard-core activists seem to believe, the result of increasing the child’s mystical bond with the universe. Rather, it has a fairly prosaic scientific explanation.
**
Formula makers have, of course, rushed to add these two fatty acids to their products.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47358-2002May7.html
We can, therefore conclude that everyone who bottle-fed in the past is a bad, bad, naughty person. However, it’s perfectly acceptable to bottle feed from now on. But science marches on. Soon enough, formula makers will be rolling out "Better 'n Breast[sup]TM[/sup], a super-optimized formula that is actually better for babies than natural milk. At that point, only a bad, bad naughty person would be so selfish as to breast feed.
Or perhaps everyone could just mind their own business . . .
Ummm . . . ya know, the CNN article doesn’t say which IQ test the study participants were given. If it was the WAIS, the different of six points might be considerably less impressive than they sound. The WAIS has a standard deviation of ten points, after all. I’ll have to read the actual study, as CNN is not known for its thorought coverage of testing and calculation methods.
Also, it’s important to note this (from the CNN article):
Geez, you reckon they might have gotten some formula and solids? :rolleyes:
I don’t quite understand why people think that making formula available only after seeing one’s doctor is the same as saying (and forgive for not getting the histrionic quotes right) that parents who choose formula are bad parents, are abusive, are hurting their child. Since when does requiring medical advice before using a product make it evil? I’ll note that no manufacturer of infant pain reliever provides dosage instructions for children under two. I have to call or visit a health professional to get that. Does that make me a poor parent for wanting to administer motrin? Of course not. Neither does choosing to use formula make one a bad parent.
I just don’t see the connection that some of you are making.
Cranky,
There are a couple different things going on here. Some people believe that when you say that breastmilk is so much better for the baby that you need a permission (and a good reason - like inability to lactate) to do otherwise, you are implying that the other option - formula - is so bad as to be dangerous to children (aka the carseat comparison). Now, I’d never let my kid ride in the car without a carseat - it would be dangerous. But I did not breastfeed my son. He is adopted, and inducing lactation is difficult (especially if you work full time like I did, and do) and people have a wide variation of success - but most babies end up drinking mostly formula from a SNS. Now, the OP implies I’ve put him in danger by not doing everything in my power to get him breastmilk. And purposely putting your child in danger IS being a bad parent. (My GP gave me the weight chart for Children’s Tylenol at the first appointment so I didn’t need to bother his nurse every time the baby ran a fever - I suspect this has less to do with baby’s health than with the drug companies unwillingness to accept liability for overdosing a very small child - which is VERY easy to do with Tylenol).
But I don’t really think that is what everyone is up in arms about. What everyone is up in arms about is the proposal that the government has an interest in how I parent. Yes, they do (carseats, child abuse) but not to the extent that they should be able to tell me what to feed my kids (within reason, I understand I can’t give them shots of scotch without having the neighbors call child protection) - and perhaps by extention, how much tv they can watch, how much time I should spend reading to them, what cleaning products I use to keep my house how clean (heavy use of antibacterial products is currently believed to cause an increase in allergies and lowered resistance to illness).
One of my own personal problems with this arguement is the insinuation that I need to be home with my kids to be a good mom. “But you can always pump.” Yep, and I did. It took me an hour and a half every day at work (plus pumping during the evening) to provide enough breastmilk to get my daughter through the day at daycare. And for six and a half months, I managed it. But my second career will never be as a dairy cow, my production was lousy.
Under this proposal, had I not been willing or able to take that time to pump, or had I not been able to squeeze out that precious 16 oz in that hour and a half (Yes, I had a hospital quality Medela pump, and was taking fenugeek, too), I’d have to have gone to a doctor to get a prescription for supplemental formula. Now, I’m sure the care providers I’ve chosen (who let me be very involved in my own health care decisions) would write one out over the phone. In which case, the proposal in the OP does not add any value - all it does is further overburden the helath care provider. But if the system is not so forgiving (you need to see a lactation consultant and try to work out the issues) or the doctor not so willing - than the woman needs to jump through hoops in order to provide her child with basic care - and she will need to justify her choices…what if the lactation consultant says “don’t pump - you’ll need to stay at home with your daughter - that’s what FMLA is for.” Now how do I pay the mortgage?
Dangerosa, you’ve pretty much said what I was going to say. This decision should have nothing AT ALL to do with someone’s ability to produce milk. It is personal preference. Like which brand peanut butter you serve your kids (oops! Is peanut butter allowed anymore?) or whether you give them fresh or frozen veggies! Or meat vs. vegetarian diet! Or whether or not to have carpeting vs. bare floors. Or open windows vs. air conditioning. Or cloth vs. paper diapers. Or walk to school vs. driving the kids. Or pets vs. no pets. Or TV vs. no TV. The list is endless.
Autz has taken a very holier-than-thou stance here, but hasn’t been back to the conversation in a while, so maybe she’s re-thought her position and backed down.
Even my doctor says that breastfed babies “seem” to have fewer colds, rather than stating it catagorically.
My breastfed oldest son was never sick as a baby. Yes, I said never. He didn’t get his first cold until he was almost a year old. Yet my best friend’s breastfed son had so many colds and ear infections the first year, he had tubes put in his ears!
If the difference is only 3 colds (an average of 9 for BF and 12 for FF, IIRC), it’s really not that big of a deal! And as with any clinical study, your mileage WILL vary!
I am a volunteer breastfeeding counselor, and I have two breastfed children myself.
Would I make formula available only by prescription?
HELL, NO.
If formula requires a doctor visit (and I’m sure under autz’s plan it would) and presumably would be hard to get, almost no one would do that then. They’d feed their babies whole milk, Coke, Kool-aide or whatever else if they couldn’t persuade their doctors to write out scripts for formula.
If a woman does not want to breastfeed, I am most certainly not going to force her to. It’s better for the baby (and mom) to breastfeed, but a reluctant mother just may be resentful enough to damage her relationship with her baby. A healthy baby and mother should be our goal.
I suppose I sound disloyal to “the cause”, but I have realized that as much as I would like every baby to be breastfed, it isn’t going to happen in my lifetime. I would prefer that everyone is happy with the choices they made, and that they have the information and support available to make those choices.
Pumping? Doesn’t work for every mom. It’s not like turning on a spigot, like many people seem to think. While I was fortunate and able to pump easily and had a flexible enough work schedule to not have to pump all that often, most moms are not that fortunate. Most easily available pumps are crappy. The good ones cost upwards of $200, and are not generally covered by insurance.
I was a lot like you, ** autz **, about 4 years ago. Then I realized that coming on so strong scares a lot of people who can be swayed to one side or the other. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, as grandma used to say.
Soryy for not being in the conversation for awhile, but I had to take my kids swimming, cook dinner, feed the cat, spend time with my husband (can’t spend all my time on line).
Dangerosa made an interesting point, “But I don’t really think that is what everyone is up in arms about. What everyone is up in arms about is the proposal that the government has an interest in how I parent. Yes, they do (carseats, child abuse) but not to the extent that they should be able to tell me what to feed my kids (within reason, I understand I can’t give them shots of scotch without having the neighbors call child protection) - and perhaps by extention, how much tv they can watch, how much time I should spend reading to them, what cleaning products I use to keep my house how clean (heavy use of antibacterial products is currently believed to cause an increase in allergies and lowered resistance to illness).”
So where do we draw the line? Most people agree that it’s not OK to use personal choice in some parenting decisions, like feeding your child whiskey, but some issues are left to parental discretion, like what kind of cereal you give them
So… in your opinion where should the line be drawn?