Bad, Bad Le Roi Jones (NJ Poet Laureate)

The BBQ Pit
101

Alright, EasyPhil, how about this. You say that the facts can’t be denied if they’re true. So why don’ you give us a site from a website that isn’t biased against Jews to the point where they try to pass off the Holocaust as a myth. If it’s as undeniable of a fact as you say, then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding it on CNN.com or MSN.com, or some other pefectly reliable news source.

Unless, of course, it’s not true and the only sites that think it is are filled with the kind of crap and bias that that one is.

102

But who tells you something helps determine whether or not you can trust it to be accurate. I don’t think that the claims made on that site are correct. What’s more, I wouldn’t trust the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust if it said that it was raining outside. They’re bigots and racists who want to deny the planned, cold blooded murder of 12 million people.

103

Yes, but statements like

are still (and I think we can fairly invoke Rule 2(b)* to exempt this thread from Godwin’s Law) Hitler-sized lies. This is not a lie believed in and spread by “critics of the Israeli government”. This is a lie believed in and spread by anti-Semites; that is, by hate-poisoned bigots. There were never 4,000 “Israeli” workers in the Twin Towers to begin with. (Of course a good non-anti-Semitic person like yourself understands the distinction between “Israeli” and “Jewish”, right?) In fact, Israeli citizens were killed in the Twin Towers, along with citizens of over 90 nations around the world. And–again, as a non-anti-Semite, you understand this distinction–many Americans who were Jewish died in the attacks as well. I daresay a mass murder perpetrated in Lower Manhattan will kill a disproportionate number of Americans who are Jewish, just as a mass murder in Minnesota would kill a disproportionate number of Americans who are Lutheran.

Further-fucking-more, when someone goes around making statements about how those damned “Israelis” are going around spreading plagues by poisoning the wells or those damned “Israelis” are kidnapping Christian children for their blood sacrifices and desecrating Christian symbols for their Satanic religious rituals–which despicable slanders this filthy lie is in the same class as–then you’ll pardon me if I connect the fucking dots.

“Spin machine” my ass. The only spinning around here are your Goebbels-esque apologias for Idi Amin Baraka.
*If one position in a debate really is Hitlerian, then it is not illegitimate to point out that fact.

104

Okay, I concede that he’s a Jew hater that has two jewish daughters and used to have a jewish wife.

105

As opposed to a disproportionate amount of afro-americans, italians, and latinos? Or, are you saying there’s a higher concentration of jews in lower manhattan than any other cultural group?

106

OK, that’s progress.

Now wouldn’t you agree that a Jew-hater shouldn’t be poet laureate of anything?

See, the syllogism runs something like this:

[ul]
[li]Racism and anti-Semitism are Bad Things.[/li][li]Poetry which expresses racism and anti-Semitism is Bad Poetry.[/li][li]The poetry of LeRoi J. expresses racism and anti-Semitism.[/li][li]People who write Bad Poetry are bad poets.[/li][li]Bad poets should not be given public money and encouraged to produce Bad Poetry.[/li][li]Ergo, LeRoi should not be poet laureate. [/li][/ul]

Instead, he should be smacked upside his thick head and told not to make a public display of his stupidity.

Now can we get back to posting parodies?

Regards,
Shodan

107

Phil, if they worked at the WTC, they weren’t Israelis, they were New Yorkers. Unless they had a real long commute every morning.

I heard on the news this morning that McGreevey is trying to have the law rewritten so he can fire the Poet Laureate. And as for the head-up-their-ass committee that chose Baraka in the first place, they should all have their artistic licenses revoked.

108

FYI, my statement that we were making progress was in response to EasyPhil’s admission that LeRoi was a Jew-hater, the post where he quotes me.

I have no idea what the next one is meant to say.

Regards,
Shodan

109

Seems like a misunderstanding of demography to me:

NYC having a higher proportion of Jewish people relative to the rest of the United States does not preclude it from having higher proportions of other ethnicities than the rest of the US nor does it mean that Jewish people are the predominant ethnicity in NYC (although they could still be – I honestly don’t know). It was a rather simple statement that MEBuckner made so it seems like you’d have to deliberately trying to misunderstand it to read like EasyPhil did.

110

From the newswire:

"Gov. James E. McGreevey will seek the power to fire the state’s poet laureate who has refused repeated calls to resign after activists labeled a Sept. 11 memorial poem anti-Semitic. Legislation giving the governor that authority is being prepared and could be introduced as early as Monday, McGreevey said Sunday. ‘This will be able to include the present poet laureate,’ McGreevey told The Associated Press.

State arts groups have recommended ending Amiri Baraka’s two-year term, which comes with a $10,000 stipend. Under McGreevey’s proposal, the state Senate would have to clear nominations for poet laureate, and whoever landed the post would need the governor’s approval. Baraka needed no such endorsement after he was recommended by the New Jersey Council for the Humanities and the state Council on the Arts. His title and grant money cannot be rescinded, and only he can end his term. Democratic Senate President Richard J. Codey, D-Essex, and Sen. Peter Inverso, R-Mercer, have scheduled Monday news conferences to discuss the poet laureate. Baraka has defended the poem, saying it 'aims to probe and disturb, but there is not any evidence of anti-Semitism.’ He refuses to step down, calling attempts to dismiss him the result of a possible war with Iraq. ‘They think that somehow I’m dangerously inclining to stripping the victim image from Israel,’ Baraka said. ‘They need that victim image to go to war.’"

111

You folks are so busy fuming over what Baraka writes in his poetry you fail to see how this move strikes a serious blow at an artists free expression, simply because someone has an agenda. Baraka’s stuff is out there for all to see and read yet he was still appointed. Oh, right, all those people were stupid artists, and even more pathetic they were some jews in there to, obviously of the self hating type. Where does this type of thing end? Who will be next? For all those that are crying anti-semitism, what’s your record on calling people on things that are anti-people of color, and I’m talking about stuff that really makes a difference i.e. racial profiling, descrimination etc… I willing to bet that those that are crying the loudest here on anti-semitism are amongst the most silent when it comes to other issues.

112

Go fuck yourself Phil, I’m sick of you and your swastika-waving ilk.

Fenris, a Jew and not a “self-hating” type.

113

And regarding the “artistic free-expression” fuckery you spew, the poet-laureate hate-monger is still free to excrete his so-called poetry, however the taxpayers of New Jersey won’t be forced to foot the bill. Perhaps you or the Klan or the American Nazi Party could could become his patron, since you all seem so intent on his brand of hatred getting out.

Fenris

114

Why some of his best friends are Jews!

115

Fuck you Fenris, in your ear at the fucking gates of Asgard. Me a Natzi, a swastika waiver, give me a mother fucking break! You my friend are way off the fucking mark. Questions, if Baraka is such a Jew hater, why doesn’t he hate his own daughters who are jews themselves? Why would he even marry a jewish woman? I haven’t seen anyone address that. Anyone??? Or how about the panel the selected him, any idea of why those jews selected him? I’m sure they’ve read his work? Don’t you think? Maybe they know a little more about literary matters than you brain dead mother fuckers.

116

Uh huh. So remaining New Jersey Poet Laureate is now an essential part of the right to free expression? That’s an interesting interpretation, there. Let me guess: you’re one of those people who also thinks it’s “censorship” when the SDMB mods erase a link to a hate site, right?

Although, to be fair, I don’t think Baraka should be fired because he’s anti-semitic. It’s irrelevant - he should be fired because he is a terrible, terrible poet.

117

Hmmm. Maybe because he married them before he started being a bitter, racist bastard. As has been said before, and as I heard him say at the lecture: he left his Jewish wife and family after the deaths of JFK, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, because as he stated, “I couldnt’ stand being around white people anymore.” Just to make sure you got it: he left his Jewish wife and family because, get this, he started hating whites. Makes a certain kind of sense, doesn’t it.

118

Since your post is more ravings and droolings with no intelligible content, I shall use it as an object lesson in grammar and spelling that some good may come from your shameless use of bandwidth.

Nazi. And “Fenris” should be enclosed in commas, and there should be a comma after “ear”. Finally, there should be a question mark following “Natzi”, which is spelled “Nazi”. Or is this how the Aryan Nation proposes to outsmart search-engines?

**

“waver”. A “waiver” is a like what your mommy wrote so you wouldn’t have to go to gym class and be embarassed by your lack of manhood. Since you’re going for the outraged shriek, this sentence fragment should start with a capital “A” and either way, that comma at the end should be a question mark.

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“give” starts a sentence and should be capitalized, “mother fucking” is hyphenated (or it’s one word, “motherfucking”. Either usage is correct, but I assume you prefer the hyphenated, as it’s less “ethnic”).

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The phrase “my friend” should be enclosed by commas.

Tell me: you think punctuation is “Jewish grammar”, don’t you?

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Instead of a comma after “Questions”, you should have a semi-colon (or possibly a colon. I can never keep those straight.) “Jews” should be capitalized every time you use it, unless you’re making a typical anti-Semitic statment by not doing so. In which case, at least be consistant in your bigotry and don’t use a capital at all. All or none; sending a mixed message is poor writing and poor hate-speech. (I also note that you correctly capitalized “Natzi”.)

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See above: “Jewish”. Although, “Jewess” would be more appropriate for your useage.

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The word “of” is unnecessary and incorrect. Correct phrasing would be “…do you have any idea why those Jews selected him?”

The word “the” that appears after the word “panel” should be “that”. I’ll be charitable and assume that mistake is a simple typo rather than the grotesque ignorance that you display throughout the rest of your post.

Also, see above: “Jews”.

And if you’re going to go that route, a more appropriate phrase to use would be “…do you have any idea why “those…people” selected him?” The Klan’s White-Paper on style is clear, given your useage.

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This nearly makes one weep. Ah well, I’ll try to bear up under the strain. < sigh > It should be “I’m sure they’ve read his work. Or do you disagree?” or, if you must ask the rhetorical question as part of the same sentence, I suppose “I’m sure they’ve read his work; don’t you?” is slightly less ghastly than your version.

**

“brain dead” and “mother fuckers” should both be hyphenated (or, as mentioned, “motherfuckers” can be written as one word).

Congrats, Phil! At long last one of your posts has been a positive contribution to the fight against ignorance, if only as an object lesson.

And, by the way, I don’t give a rat’s ass about his “literary matters” any more than you do, you fucking goosestepper. Why don’t you just admit that you’re on his side 'cause you’re a Jew-hater too? It would at least have the advantange of demonstrating that you have the courage of your convictions, however deluded and evil they may be.

Fenris, who invokes Gaudere’s Law for the inevitable typo(s) sure to appear in this post.

119

[VERY BIG SIGH]

And I need a lobotomy for writing this reply because I really don’t have time to be posting and particularly because I think folks have already made up their minds about Baraka, and that’s fine. I can respect folks’ opinions and reactions to what he wrote. He’s not an easy artist, or I suspect person, to deal with. But, I’m going to offer my 1.5 cents for what it’s worth and then quietly exit this thread. Y’all may do with it what you will.

I have to question how folks can call Baraka an anti-Semite or even a terrible poet on the basis of reading one poem. Of course he’s pushing buttons in the poem mentioned in the OP, but if you look at his work, he generally does that. His work is marked by an odd combination of hyperbole, sarcasm, irony, trickery, and passion to name a few characteristics. I remember last year, a little after 9/11, someone sent me the poem, and I thought it was powerful. I didn’t think Baraka’s necessarily anti-Semitic in this poem, although he does strike me as being anti-Sharon. But then when I look at some of the stuff he’s written over the years–if you look at a collection of his works, over the years you’ll see a progression. As a poet he’s developed from his stint as a beat poet/Bohemian. He’s been involved in the Civil Rights Movement, the Socialist Movement in America, traveled to Cuba and witnessed Communism there, I think he converted to Islam and may still practice it, and who knows what else he’s done. Basically, he has explored and spoken out for political and social change in his art and in his life. Perhaps it is these things that the folks who nominated him for Poet Laureate were thinking of. Just my WAG.

Still, I sometimes wonder if all of Baraka’s experiences in some of the major craziness of the latter half of the 20th Century haven’t really messed with his head. I met him once at a function years ago, and he just struck me as a tired and somewhat bitter old man who’s just seen a lot of shit and doesn’t mince words when he feels he has something to say. Of course, all I can do is speculate since I don’t know him that well.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m ambivalent about Baraka for a lot of reasons. I think he’s a misogynist–Although I’ve heard folks who know him say he feels bad for the misogyny he expressed in his work and has since changed his views on women. I don’t know what to make of that because I don’t know him. I certainly don’t like his dealings with his Jewish wife and kids, but I don’t have all the particulars on the difficulties they experienced as an interracial couple during the time they were married. He’s certainly very biased on certain things, hell, he may well be an anti-Semite, but one thing I know for sure: He has a history of saying outrageous things to get folks to think about things that we take for granted or just don’t think to question.

In the poem, “Somebody Blew Up America,” he discusses the history of racism and hypocrisy in America as it developed in the terrorist tactics used in slavery, the near genocide of American Indidans, Jim Crow segregation, the history of lynching in America from the rise of the KKK in the late 19th Century up through the mid-20th Century, the craziness of the Civil Rights Movement, . . . and the history of racism and hypocrisy in other parts of the world as it relates to colonialism and imperialism in Africa, South Africa, South America, Latin America, and parts of the Middle and Far East. Of course, I object to his implication that Israeli/Jewish workers stayed home from the World Trade Center on 9/11/01 because it is inaccurate, but I confess I’m confused as to what he’s actually getting at in that stanza. It could well be that in the “4000 Israelis stayed home” line, he’s expressing the viewpoint of folks in Muslim countries that lack the free press that we Westerners are used to who believed until they were informed that the hijackers were primarily Saudis–and may still believe despite the evidence of the hijackers’ confirmed Saudi nationalities–that the whole World Trade Center bombing was an Israeli plot, but he may not necessarily himself believe that 9/11 was a Jewish plot. Or, he may well believe that it was a Jewish plot. Who knows? Overall I read this poem as a warning against apathy, lack of knowledge of history that can and does repeat itself, and just blind acceptance of what authority figures tell you to think without engaging in any kind of individual critical thinking.

For the record, I am not an apologist for Baraka, an anti-Semite or a racist, nor do I think that folks who like Baraka’s works are either. I understand how feelings can and do run high over 9/11, and I offer this post as a way of providing just another perspective here. Carry on.

120

This may not be easy, EasyPhil, but I want you to get a grip on yourself, sit down, and prepare for a real shock. Ready?

There are Jews and people who are related to Jews who are anti-Semites. They turn their poison inward.

Take Louis Farrakhan, who declared himself Jewish awhile back, and who is not exactly famous for tolerance toward Jews. And then there’s this wad of phlegm who infested the boards awhile back.

LeRoi’s just a creepier version of the “Some of my best friends are…” bigot.
Got it now? Good.