badchad suspended

Hello? I don’t think I’m suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Rather, I think that “man creates God in his own image” far too often. Or to be more specific, “…in his parents’ image.” The God of whom I speak, and whom I claim to have had experience of (and for gosh sakes let’s save whether that was a delusion for another thread; I only bring it up because it validates my personal impression of Him, if itself true), is one that practices good parenting – lots of love, freely expressed, discipline where needed and with the idea of instilling a moral sense rather than punishing, enough freedom to experiment and test one’s wings – and invevitably fall off one’s bike the first time – combined with some guidance on what to avoid in doing so. He is validated in Jesus’s explication of Him, combined with His own self-description in various Old Testament works.

The Bible being what it is, you can prove almost anything from it, including that pigs wear porkpie hats and dance in conga lines. Using different source material from the same book, the conservatives hold up a wrathful God who’s inclined to get pissed off at all and sundry for offenses – not the ones the conservatives are inclined to commit, no, but rather the ones that the ostracized minorities are likely to. And because this God is likely to throw a hurricane, an earthquake, a series of blizzards, or a volcanic eruption at everyone, good and bad alike, like the sort of parent who at the last minute cancels a vacation looked forward to for months by all five kids, and grounds them all for three months, because one of them left a sock in front of instead of inside the laundry hamper and won’t admit to it, so they feel compelled to make darn sure that you guys, or us Liberal Christians either, don’t do something that will piss Him off.

I feel sorry for them – living in fear of a God you’re supposed to love (and not loving whom is one of those sins you’re supposed to not commit) has got to be a bitch. But the only effective way I’ve found to combat it is to argue down their points, and instead point to Jesus’s own teachings.

As to why my cherry-picking is better than theirs? Simple: when faced with incompossible dichotomies, find a touchstone as to which set of answers is right. If Jesus is God the Son, Lord and Master, and He specifies what’s right belief and behavior, then that’s the key. And He does just that, in the Summary of the Law, the Golden Rule, several dozen parables. Not rigid adherence to the rules of the Law, but compassionate, just behavior and trust in a loving God, is what He says.

And if you are not going to believe Christ over anyone else, it makes little sense to call yourself a Christian.

Wink all you want, but your singling out of Christians for that honor is unsupportable. What is it about Christianity that you think makes it more susceptible to criticism on that basis than other monotheistic religions built on an omnipotent Deity?

More to the point, are you the judge of how such a Deity would “show” its Love? Would that way be true for all recipients or just you? What evidence would be reasonable -to you- that you recieve that Love?

I think the only way I can illustrate this to you is like this: I am very close emotionally with my wife, closer than to any other human being. We’ve been together for years and can each accurately anticipate the other’s reaction to various circumstances. We share each other’s disappointments, joys, excitement, etc. We even, in a very real way, can take each other’s worries on ourselves and relieve the other of them. But I have never and can never experience my wife in the way I experience God. And certainly not in the way I believe God experiences me.

When I relinquish a worry to God, it is not something shared between us; it is just something no longer relevant to me. But this in no way negates the cause of the worry, or any responsibilities I have regarding the source of that worry. I must still pay my bills, nurse a sick child, provide due diligence to an account at work, etc. None of those worry producers go away, but… when I need it, there is God’s love, providing a support that even my best friend my wife cannot provide.

When we Christians talk about a loving God, that is a small part of what we mean. I don’t expect God to change the physical laws, systemic features or anthropological strictures within which our shared reality operates, or even to change minor aspects of them. That is not what his Love is for.

So what is God’s love to you then? Can you try to explain this?

All I ever heard was that God loved us so much he sacrificed his only begotten son for us? How else has he and does he show his love?

The old Testament God was a cranky Being from what I recall.

Jim

Well,What Exit?, I don’t know if I can explain it. You’ve quoted my best attempt so far. I honestly want to explain myself without having to “explain” God, but it is such an experientially based belief I’m finding it difficult to get across. And the only thing I can even try and describe is the effect on me of God’s love. I can’t give you my experiences, anymore than you can give me yours.

I will see if I can come up with something, but I don’t believe I’m a good enough poet or skilled enough analogist to bring it home.

[sub]xeno - Not responsible for the Old Testament God, the New Testament God or any current textual revisions, additions or walking incarnations.[/sub]

I don’t understand what God has done that is not loving. Ripped some atoms apart? So what? They’re His atoms. And they’re just atoms. Every organic thing is going to turn to dirt sooner or later. Why is it more loving to let someone linger until they’re so feeble they can’t control their own bowels than it is to snuff them out at a more tender age? The spirit lives on in either case, and is the only real living entity anyway.

And yet, he does allow some of his atoms to linger without bowel control. He rips apart others before they speak their first word. Sounds a heck of a lot more like indifference than showing love. But who are we to understand His ways, huh?

xenophon41, I already pointed out why I thought that Christianity deserved specific questioning, in my mind, about the State of Man. If you point out other monotheistic religions that purport an all powerful, caring father figure then, by all means, include them in my honors.

Is this freely expressed love and discipline meted out on the physical plane? As I mentioned to xenophon41 in an earlier post, I wasn’t talking about Biblical accuracy - just the concept of a loving God. But since you brought it up, how do you “cherry-pick” events or thoughts in your life to have been inspired directly by God?

Though xenophon41, I wanted to also say that I think I understand your point about what God’s love means to you. It’s more of a comforting love* than a Mama Bear love. It’s a deep emotion you can feel yourself sink into, confess all weaknesses and think with a different sort of clarity type of thing? I guess to a large degree, if you don’t put much stock in any sort of active God then it does exempt you from much of my earlier points on Christianity. I hereby so stipulate in my generalization!

*So would you disagree with Polycarp on the fact that God gives discipline?

Thanks for the stipulation, CarnalK, but I may not have earned that exemption. “Love” is every bit as much a verb as it is a noun, and I do believe God is active in my life. No, I don’t believe that God intercedes for me to warp reality in ways specifically meant to fit my desires or needs. But I am guided and comforted by his presence.

I believe that if God can exist in my heart, he can give direction to others. I don’t know that Poly intended to characterize how that discipline is applied in any general way, but I suppose I wouldn’t disagree that that could involve physical manifestations. Who am I to declare limitations on God’s love? I don’t even know that limitations make sense in such a context.

Never said it was. Read more carefully next time.

[…shrug…] I’m Lib, and I understand it just fine. What’s not to understand? It’s like saying a sculptor hates the block of wood that he has chosen to carve into a work of art. Just because an organic blob of flesh has not yet spoken a word doesn’t mean the spirit hasn’t sung, and the spirit is the only life there is. There’s no life in the atoms.

Well, he did create poison ivy and mosquitos…

:smiley:

Maybe so. However, to quote Werner Heisenberg, “The atoms or the elementary particles are not real; they form a world of potentialities and possibilities rather than one of things or facts.”

**xenophon41 ** & CarnalK: Thank you for the clarifications, while I understand where you are coming from, I of course do not really “understand it”.
Not that you should care, but your beliefs appear to be those I would put into the benign category. You do not sound like you would ever use your religion to do harm to others.

Religion and especially Christians get a lot of guilt by associations for the huge numbers that do not believe in the theory evolution. The polls on this issue have scared the bejeebus out of me. Too many people want science to be 100% on knowledge or their theories are wrong.

They also get grief for the fact the fact that it is good, kindhearted Christian people that are at the center of Anti-Gay Marriage laws and amendments being passed, the bulk of the support for the Iraq war and Bush and of course the ongoing debates on school prayer and abortion. It is impossible to trust the “Good Will” of Christians collectively.

Liberal Christians like yourself and so many others on this board are forced into the position of being apologist for the more hateful Christians in the world and especially the US. The UK and Canada and even most of Western Europe now, appear to be dominated by Christians that do not place their religion ahead of other people’s rights at this point.

I hope to live in an America that swings that direction, I have to settle for living in a state that does.

So where does your God do his loving and what does he love?

How does he show it?

Do you disagree with **Poly’s ** view of God on a basic level in your own faith?

Jim

I define love (in the sense of divine love) as the facilitation of goodness. I define goodness as that which edifies. God is therefore Love — the Facilitator of Goodness. He does His loving everywhere and always. It is good that atoms waste away into entropy while living spirit thrives and multiplies. What He loves is us — our essential selves, the selves that do not die.

He is Holy. I define holiness as perfect love; that is, the perfect facilitation of goodness. He shows His love by making us gods — free moral agents, whose willful volition is all that’s required to be one with Him.

Good question. I’m not sure. Sometimes, I think so. Poly speaks above my head on this issue. He summons a lot of comments by ancient figures, cross tabulates them with these or those historical facts, gives the background and history of the evolution of the Church, and often concludes with something that I honestly don’t even comprehend.

My faith is very simple. Jesus overwhelmed me with His love one day. Suddenly. Out of the blue. Everything changed. My whole perspective. All at once. And since that time, I’ve endeavored to make sense of it through reason. Logic is something that, for some reason, is easy for me to understand. It makes sense to me. And so it is easier for me to express my faith in a logical tableau than in an impassioned narrative.

I am glad that makes sense to you, it makes no sense to me.

Actually, on this board lately we’ve been forced into the position of being apologist for ourselves, which I admit is a bit irritating.

Not all that long ago, those European denominations were every bit as hateful and intolerant as the more vocal strains of religious bigotry in the US. I don’t know if it was the great wars of the 20th Century that finally pushed liberalization of religious views or just lots of work within those societies to affect that change.

I won’t accept the mantle of ‘apologist’ for bigotry. And although I myself do not (and will not) belong to any Christian denomination, I am thankful that LC’s are still strong enough in this country that they can help to move expression of that faith in our society toward tolerance and acceptance. The same thing that happened -by no accident- in the UK, Canada and Western Europe can happen in the US through the social activism of the thoughtful among us, and through intrafaith activism of LC’s.

If, I suppose, we don’t spend all our time defending ourselves from the blowback aimed at our less nuanced ‘Xian’ cousins.

So God “loves” us the way a child loves his Lego set or a Buddhist monk loves his sand mandala? I guess I can understand that but not how anyone could get overwhelmed or even warmed by such a love. YMMV, obviously.

I don’t understand your analogies. How does a Lego set correspond to a free moral agent? If you pinned me down, held a gun to my head, and forced me to produce an analogy, I’d say that He loves us the way a good father loves his son. The son is free to stay or go or honor his father or dishonor him — the choice is entirely his own.

Liberal. Just out of curiosity, what’s your take on the problem of theodicy?

The tone of this thread has become *entirely * inappropriate for this forum. :smiley: