I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that as a society we can request certain members to be removed. I didn’t say killed, I said removed - as in taken away and locked up.
Oops, sorry Munch, you’re right, I did misunderstand you. My apologies. I guess I should of noticed that whole “I’m very much anti-death penalty” sentence-type thing at the beginning of your post. Again - sorry.
I am damned tired of people saying that the execution offers “closure” or that it will let the victims get on with their lives. First off, the victims are dead. Their lives ended when the bomb went off. As for the families of the victims, my heart goes out to them, but if they have not found closure in 6 years, they are never going to find it. Tim’s death cannot bring it to them. They have to find it themselves. Closure comes from inside.
So, Tim is now dead. I live in Oklahoma City, and I am going to have to listen to people praise his death for a long time to come. I am sick of it. Nobody should take joy in such a thing. Even McVeigh, while never apologetic, did not take joy in the deaths he caused. He had the classic terrorist mentality. Anything and everything for the cause. There was no joy for him in his act.
Uh-huh. The guy who has killed his last 14 neighbors can move in next to you while you make him “live his life well”. I’d rather have him dead. And just how do you make someone live their life well?
[nitpick] Well, no, not really. There are hundreds (?) who were injured by the bomb. They are certainly victims, too.[/nipick]
One of the news stations this morning (CNN, maybe) had a woman who is now in a wheelchair and still doing physical therapy, to recover from injuries suffered in the bomb. Isn’t she a victim, too?
There was one young woman whose leg was amputated in the rubble, because they couldn’t get her out. She is also a victim.
There were two sets of little brothers killed, the Coverdale and Smith boys, all under five or so. Aren’t their parents victims?
As for closure, I think that will vary depending on each person. For some, yes, this will offer some sort of closure. Others may never get closure. And yet others may already have closure.
Well, I wasn’t actually advocating letting blatent murderers out of prison - not at least within a rather large timespan. But living your life well can also mean improving yourself. Educating, coming to understand the feelings of others. In the end this will have a more tortuous effect on the killer than simply ending his capacity to feel anything.
pan
Do you believe that all people (barring mental illness or deficiency) can be rehabilitated?
I’m going to take a somewhat different angle on this. My wife and I had a rather lengthy conversation about this over the weekend.
My stance was as follows:
The death penatly shows very little forsight because it does little to solve the problem. There will be future sociopaths. . .putting one to death simply removes him until the next one comes along and considering he has already been removed because he is/was sitting in prison, it’s not even a necessary step.
It would be a far greater service to perform research on him to determine the factors that allowed him to take that little extra step. If the causes can be determined (be it certain chemical imbalances, living evironments condusive to this, etc) this sort of tragedy can be prevented in the future.
I have heard the “how much will this cost” arguement before and frankly don’t think it’s an issue…
If by rehabilitated you mean educated to understand that all people are people and deserve to be treated with the respect accordingly then yes, I genuinely do. Unless we’ve killed them first of course.
I don’t believe in the inherent sinfulness of man and I don’t believe that any person is fundamentally and unrecoverably evil. As such I believe that we are all capable of being better people than we are. I have to believe it, otherwise I’d just give up on society now.
What’s more, I believe in GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). If you treat a man like shit for his whole life, then he’ll be a shit. If, however, you treat people with respect whilst giving them the tools to understand what that respect means, you may just get a worthwhile human out instead.
pan
mayberrydan:
Assuming that we can nail down exactly what factors lead to the decision of a mass murderer/terrorist to act (which I don’t believe it can be pinpointed) – Once we have the “guidelines” for what makes someone a mass murderer /terrorist – what steps do we take to ensure that “this sort of tragedy can be prevented in the future.”?
kabbes:
I guess we’ll just have to disagree.
Woah there - I’m not letting you off that easily! Why do you disagree? I’ve given my reasons why I don’t think that anybody is irredeemable - what are yours for thinking otherwise?
pan
If it’s a chemical imbalance then we test at birth.
If we can develop a profile, then we determine high risk environments and monitor them. When I say monitor, I definately don’t mean lojack, I just mean have teachers aware during schooling and little things like that.
I don’t think the research wouldn’t necessarily be that in depth. THen of course determining solutions with the patient.
I guess I just don’t understand society’s fascination with killing; no matter who it happens to. It’s frankly quite disturbing.
not so much that I think that some people can’t be reached – (here comes the flames) I don’t think we should bother with people who have shown themselves to be violent criminals.
I believe that there are some people that cannot be reached. Yes, many times it is a result of how they were raised, and that sucks, but I do not think you can get through to someone who killed 168 people by telling them they should respect other people. He had some higher cause he believed in, and he acted on his beliefs. You don’t think he was ever told to play nice with others? What makes someone new telling him any different?
While not all criminals are beyond the point of being reached, I think some are. And, truth be told, I don’t really give a fuck if they can be reached or not. They made a decision to kill/rape/blow up a building/whatever. Why the fuck should we bother trying to teach this ass anything at all? I don’t believe in second chances for violent criminals. I don’t care about anything positive they have to offer to the world later in life. They die, or are imprisoned for life.
And I agree with GIGO while a person is raised. I think up until a certain age (12? 16? not sure) that is someone is raised in a shithole atmosphere with no father and drug use and drinking and no boundaries, that’s what the person is and not much is going to change that. Sad? Yes. Society’s job to rehabilitate after they commit a violent murder or something of the like? I don’t see the point.
please insert a “It’s” at the beginning of my post … I screwed up the C&P.
No, Timothy McVeigh is not a hero, although I must say I haven’t heard anyone trying to make that case, so I’m not exactly sure what your point is there. He is, however, a very tragic figure, and he is a symbol of the argument against the death penalty. The tragedy is not just the fact that he died; the tragedy is that Timothy McVeigh was just like you. Tell me, what is the difference between you, who can enthusiastically enjoy the death of a human being, and Timothy McVeigh, who emotionlessly killed 168 human beings?
I had a friend in high school who looks a hell of a lot like Timothy McVeigh. They even have the same smile. So whenever I see news reports, I think of my friend. And I feel that’s hauntingly appropriate, because it very well could have been my friend who bombed that federal building. It could have been your friend, or that poster’s brother, or that guy over there’s son. Timothy McVeigh did not have some sort of genetic code that compelled him to do evil. He wasn’t an alien half-breed dedicated to destroying the Earth. He was a person who reacted poorly (ok, that’s an understatement, but that’s still the essence) to the shitty circumstances life threw at him. If you can say that you’ve always reacted to life’s trials, then you’re excused from reading the rest of this post.
Contrary to what you say, Vinnie, McVeigh was not some dispicible monster. He was a person who acted dispiciably, like we all have at some time or another. Do whatever it takes to remind you of his humanity. If it helps to think that his buddies used to call him Timmy, do that. I would wager $1000 that he cried during the night before his death. If his fearful tears help you to remember that he was a person, remember them. Remember his parents, who still have to live with kicking themselves and wondering what they did wrong. It’s comforting to label him as “Not-me,” but that’s just a smokescreen.
Timothy McVeigh is a symbol against the death penalty because if he’s not, then neither are you.
Quix
Why bother mouthbreather? Purely because I don’t measure my humanity by their actions.
pan
End of my second paragraph should read, “If you can say that you’ve always reacted perfectly to life’s trials…”
mayberrydan: What if it’s a chemical imbalance plus a lot of other things? What if you can’t show any correlation with a chemical imbalance? Would you let your kid be submitted to the “mass murderer/crazy” test as an infant? Think everyone else would?
It sounds good on paper, but I dont think it would ever be implemented or work in the real world.
And I wouldn’t say that I have a fascination with killing people. I would never personally harm anyone unless my family or I was in danger. But given these choices when dealing with a murderer:
a.) put them in jail and try to teach them what they did was wrong etc.
b.) erase their existence
“B” seems like a more desirable option from my standpoint.
Imprisonment both isolates the criminal from society, preventing him from committing more crimes, and punishes him by restricting his freedom. Killing a criminal crosses the line from justice to vengeance. The State does not belong in the revenge business. If we execute criminals, why not torture or mutilate them?
and a big “Amen” for Quixotic78’s post.
I do understand your point of view and it was in fact that of my wife’s. I do not believe that he should have the luxury of being taught anything either. There is such a thing as free will and believe me, I understand that too.
BUT
my post is not at all about saving timothy mcveigh, it’s about saving someone else and their victims the next time. Keeping one sociopath alive to save another, and countelss victims. … in my opinion…is not a bad thing.