Baptism is so nice, I had to do it twice!

Hi guys 'n gals. I was just talking with my mother, who is begging me to come to hear this preacher at her church who is visiting this week. During the conversation she said she was moved to be re-baptised by his last sermon.

I told her I thought this was odd. As a Christian who believes we are saved by God’s love for us in the form of Christ, baptism to me is not necessary the first time, much less a second time. Take the thief who asked Jesus to remember him in Heaven; Jesus told him he would see him there that day - no baptism.

She said it was scriptural that we believe in Christ, confess it with our mouth, then be baptised. She says she was baptised too young and needs to be re-baptised to get her baptism on this side of her salvation.

I know I should probably just let it go, and I probably will.
And all you heathans who mock us and our god-myths and rituals, give us a pass this time, eh? I know this seems silly to you, but let us have our fun… :slight_smile:

So what is the actual topic of debate?

Re-baptism?
Baptism?
Maternal theological confusion?

Can you give us a single line to keep this from turning into a muddle?

Fair enough.

Baptism by water is not necessary for salvation. If baptism does occur, it does not matter if it happened as a child or an adult.

Feeling the need to be re-baptised shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Christ’s sacrafice.

I don’t have an opinion on the necessity of baptism or re-baptism (well, I guess I do, but I’m trying to honor the last line of the OP) but I can see someone wanting to do it a second time for the same reasons some couple want to re-affirm their wedding vows.

In the Roman Catholic tradition, a validly administered baptism “imprints a character” (or “leaves an indelible mark on the soul” for those old enough to remember the Baltimore Cathechism) and may be received only once.

From that viewpoint, therefore, a “re-baptism” would be as silly as an Orthodox Jew having his bar mitzvah at age 70 because he didn’t have a ceremony when he was a kid.

For those in other Christian faiths… I will defer to someone more knowledgable.

Here comes the Catholic:
In Baptism, the parents make promises on behalf of the child, and then raise the child in the faith.

First Communion is your first step into the rituals of the Church on your own.

Confirmation is when you reaffirm, on your own behalf, the promises made for you at Baptism.
Confirmation would serve the same purpose for us as an adult baptism would for our more literal-minded brothers and sisters.

We do admit Christ with our mouths when we reaffirm our Christian promises, and we are anointed.

There are those Christians that insist that only full immersion is acceptable, but I (and, I would think, Saint Dismas) respectfully disagree.
But, like Miller said, if you want to have a ceremony to celebrate and reaffirm your commitment to Christ and His example, then, by all means, go ahead.

My pastor preaches about baptism as a symbolic rite of cleansing, not necessary for salvation. He also refers to it as part of being obedient to Christ’s teaching. for instance Matthew 28:19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

You make a good point in that baptism isn’t required as a part of salvation. Personally, I think the issue itself isn’t so black and white, or “either/or.”

The problem with “baptism is absolutely required” is that it would mean Jesus was lying or contradicting himself when speaking with the thief on the Cross. He’s going to die. There’s just no possible way for him to receive a physical water baptism. How can he enter the kingdom if such a physical baptism were absolutely required of that man?

The answer is that he very well just couldn’t. If he were saved in the middle of a desert, with no water nearby, are we to say that a man’s full acceptance of Christ, repentence, and all the stuff that matters is reduced to ashes because there’s no ocean nearby?

Absolute legalism, in my opinion, is the kind of stuff that muddles Christianity. Granted, there is and probably should be a “line” that we draw in the sand in regards to certain issues. But in terms of what qualifies for salvation, we often focus too much on the things that are focused too much on physical ritual and dependence rather than the stuff that one can do without need of “water nearby.”

Baptism is one of those issues. Should you, as a true believer, do what all the apostles, and everyone else did, including the Messiah himself, in terms of baptism?

My opinion is yes. I think it should be part of your walk. I would even go so far as to say that it’s almost required, in that you are essentially commanded in some ways to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. I’ve always read this part of Scripture as being more of a spiritual sense. I’m baptised by the Holy Spirit. However, in a show of faith, I would get the physical baptism. I could even get it two, or three more times, as a re-dedication to that faith.

But again, it’s a “show” of faith. It’s something that is pleasing and acceptable to God. But to say my soul rests in the balance of me getting such a baptism is cutting it a bit too far. If that were the case, then that opens a whole can of worms, including Human Intervention of people getting saved!

1.) I capture a bunch of non-believers, torture them, a few of them suddenly believe in Christ whole-heartedly. But I locked them in a dungeon with no water. And just to be extra careful, I tape their mouths shut so they can’t even spit on each other. I remove their tear ducts. And I use some air device to make sure they never ever sweat. No water whatsoever. Oops. They’re doomed.

2.) Christian gets saved, but throughout the walk never actively pursues the opportunity to get baptised. Maybe life’s circumstances, situations, doubts, personal lives, etc., just arranged it in such a way that the man never gets into an official church function and officially experiences a “baptism” ceremony. It can happen.

I’ve been a Christian five years+. I’ve never been an official member of any church; I move around from town to town (my immediate family does not share my beliefs, and did not raise me in the tradition). As such, I’ve never had the opportunity to really just go and be baptised, as I’m getting to know different sets of people more often than staying in the Church I’ve entered. Granted, I could go through the effort and simply demand that the ceremony be done. And I do intend on one day being baptised. The sooner the better in my opinion. But if performing a ceremony was all the remained between me and God, that raises two important ideals.

1.) If baptism is required, that means that it isn’t just Jesus that saves. It’s Jesus and his fellow Priests (who have access to water and knowledge of the annointing ceremony).

-or-

2.) We simply recognize that it is our relationship with God that counts. Human intersession doesn’t matter. The thief is proof of that. He had no opportunity for baptism. It wasn’t even mentioned. So the thief, in that sense, only needed the relationship.

Granted, in situation 2), there’s no excuse for the vast majority of us to not be baptised. If Jesus himself got baptised, then I intend to do the same. I think it’s just a natural part of the process. But to claim that I’m lost until physical baptism is too absolutist. I think there are a variety of other issues, beliefs, and patterns of what consititutes a true “follower” that should come up before someone starts talking about water rituals.

Heck, there’s even arguments on what kind of baptism you got! “Did he sprinkle your head, or did you get submerged? Don’t you know the first Gentiles and Jews were literally taken to a beach and fully drenched in the water? If so, you know now that your sprinkling wasn’t enough!”

The Church culture these days doesn’t even actively pursue getting people baptised. If you just accept Christ at a ceremony, many well-grounded Churches of various denominations won’t immediately bring out the tub of water for you. They prefer to walk you through the steps in this modern day and age rather than simply proclaim you for all to see. There’s more baggage to go through if you want the ceremony done to you. You can’t just walk in and say, “Baptise! Now!”

In my mind, this mindset just harkens back to the days of tradition, when you had to sacrifice and do this sacrifice in a certain way. Purification by blood, etc. As far as my opinion and knowledge goes, this is no longer a strict requirement. It’s more of a “If you love me, you’ll do this.” I think this is just a smidgen’s worth away from “Do it or fall!”

I think you’re refering to the Holy Spirit here, but that’s also bestowed at confirmation as well.

I should have mentioned in the previous post that my church is a Church of Christ in Christian Union church, protestant, Arminian in doctrine.

Cake?
I think most religions include a ceremony with baptism, and I understand why some people are really into ceremony. A repeat of a specific ceremony can make a lot of sense for some people.

I’m fairly anti-ceremony, so (even if I were a believer) I wouldn’t want to repeat something like a baptism.

Is it necessary? We-ell, it seems to be a matter of free will, theologically. Dismas didn’t have the opportunity to be baptised so his lack didn’t reflect on his choices. If he had the opportunity and rejected it after coming to know Jesus, would Jesus have waved away the requirement or would he have said, “Yo, Dismas, what’s the deal? If you can’t be bothered with that, can you be bothered with me?”

It’s not necessarily the case that it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Christ’s sacrifice. Certain churches, mine among them, stipulate certain requirements for a baptism to be valid and maintain that those requirements are present in Scripture and that by adhering to those requirements, one is honoring Christ’s sacrifice. One of those requirements is that the person being baptised be a willing participant, which rules out infant baptism. Another requirements is that the person performing the baptism be a priest (of our church, of course).

Left out one thing:
So, for a church such as mine, there’s really no re-baptism. The first baptism is held to be invalid and thus the second baptism is the first real baptism.

And, to keep things even, my church doesn’t recognize a baptism in yours, though they’ll recognize one from just about any other Christian denomination. :smiley:

I once spent some time reading through a Christian prayerbook (don’t remember the denomination - contra dancing at this church and I was waiting for the band to come back). The prayerbook included a service for “renewal of baptism” with appropriate readings. I found the idea a bit odd, too, but Miller’s idea makes sense.

I recall that the readings directed the participant to “remember [his] baptism” and also order of service warned the officiant that water should only be used “in a manner that cannot be understood as baptism.”

Maybe someone would do this if they had been unobservant (or unenthusiastically observant) for quite some time and had recently become more enthusiastic about their faith? Would someone do this if they had been baptized, adopted another religion for a while, and then begun practicing their original religion again?

While I agree with the first conention (no it isn’t necessary not necessary); I’d disagree with the second.

I really do like Miller’s analogy with the wedding vows. They people making the reaffirmation certainly don’t need to do so to stay married, they are no more married than they were before the ceremony (nor would they be any less married if they didn’t go through with it.) I also don’t think that it necessarily shows a fundamental misunderstanding of marriage (though it can, but not necessarily).

I am guessing that people who wish to be re-baptized wants to make a public declaration of their current spiritual state. Their state is not changed by the baptism, but …

Dude! It’s ON-LINE!

http://www.truecatholic.org/baltcont.htm

Heathen Episcopalian checking in. We do it once in infancy as a rule (I was baptized at 6 months). It makes it clear the child is a formal member of the church and the whole community has a role in raising him or her. It also gives members of the congregation a cute-baby fix. Do denominations who baptize as adults have anything similar? While I’m not one to go gaga over cute babies, I can see how those who do wouldn’t consider teenagers nearly as cute.

It would never occur to me to undergo a re-baptism. I did formally reaffirm my baptismal vows several years ago, but that was under rather extraordinary circumstances. Even so, when it seemed the right thing to do, I asked to do it quietly on a Wednesday morning with just a few close friends as witnesses because it was between me and God, not something I was doing to impress the congregation.

I’ve heard good sermons. I’ve heard sermons which have left me feeling filled with the Holy Spirit and/or thinking, “God, I love this church!” As an Episcopalian, I’m also a member of a church which doesn’t go in for loud, public demonstration of sentiments, at least not in my experience. If someone who was a member of my church suddenly felt the need to be publicly re-baptized, my innate suspicion of showiness would kick in and I’d wonder how much was sincere and how much was a need to demonstrate how pious he or she was.

Public piety in the sense of confessing the Gospel and shouting “Hallelujah!” is easy. Even a reserved, shy 'Piscy like me can pull it off if the circumstances require it, albeit a bit clumsily. I know because a couple of times circumstances have required it. Piety which reflects itself in quietly doing good, in being merciful and just and helping others, is a lot harder.

If the baptism bestowed on me when I was just a baby is insufficient, actually, if Christ’s death and subsequent resurrection was insufficient to absolve me of my sins, then I don’t see how another dunking or sprinkling will make any difference. Either the Sacrament and Sacrifice are sufficient or they’re not.

Then again, I’m just a rogue Episcopalian!
CJ

Siege: Isn’t the Confirmation ceremony a re-affirmation of the Baptismal covenants for Episcopalians?

Confirmation is a reaffirmation of Baptismal vows. For those not familiar with it, Episcopalians usually do it when they’re teens or pre-teens. I was confirmed when I was 11, but there’s been a movement afoot to make it a few years later, when young people are more aware of the significance of what they’re doing. I’d say it’s akin to a Bar or Bat Mitvah or Baptism in churches which believe in baptizing adults. There’s also a similar sacrament called the Reaffirmation of Baptismal Vows. That’s what I did about 12 years ago after the extraordinary circumstances I mentioned. Confirmation and Reaffirmation of Baptismal Vows are almost identical and, indeed, they’re covered in the same section of the Book of Common Prayer (that section also has the ceremony for receiving someone formally into the Episcopal Church). The main surface difference, as far as I can tell, is in the blessing pronounced by the Bishop. For Confirmation, it’s one of these two:

or

For Reaffirmation, the blessing is:

Note: “he”, “him”, and “his” are replace with “she”, “her” and “hers” when appropriate, of course.
All the Episcopalians I know who’ve been Episcopalian from childhood have been confirmed, at least as far as I know. I know very few people who’ve reaffirmed their vows and I don’t think I would have if it hadn’t been for the slight matter of my life and sanity being saved by a miracle, followed by my surviving a most tumultuous year.

Thanks for asking! Yes, if anyone’s interested, I can give you the blessing for Reception (into the Episcopal Church) as well.
CJ