May I direct your attention to the recent issue of public prayer at high school football games? It was student led.
But what does it matter anyway?
This particular forum doesn’t appear to be offended by stupid stereotypes. One good phobia deserves another.
sigh
Because that’s NOT simple private praying-it’s to get others to join in. And need I remind you that of the students who complained, one was either Muslim or Jewish, and the other was-GASP-a CATHOLIC. (Yep, another one of us Mary-Worshippers!)
As for the stereotype in the OP, I agree. It was very reactionary and ridiculous. 2 wrongs don’t make a right, however.
So, don’t go to football games. That’s what I’m told when I voice disgust about vulgarity in movies. They have the right to ignore anyone praying publicly if they don’t want to listen.
I’m glad we can find some common ground. I don’t think what I said about the ACLU was wrong, however, since your quote about them supports what I said. They do not believe in prayer in school even when it is not administered by teachers or students are forced to participate.
Correction
My last post should read: The ACLU does not believe in school prayer even when it is not administered by a teacher or students are not forced to participate.
They may not be forced to participate, but they are forced to LISTEN.
How would you feel if it were a Buddhist prayer, or a Jewish prayer being read over a football game?
Jenkinsfan: Let’s make this simple. The issue for the ACLU, for the damned, and for those who think that heaven’s not just for fundies, is that if 16 trillion students and parents want to join hands in the stands and pray for victory and the opposing quarterback to get his fucking neck broken, that’s fine by most of us and by the ACLU. If, however, federal, state, county, district, or town funded equipment is used to promote said prayer, that is a violation of the establishment clause. That’s what the SC said, and that’s what most of us who aren’t fundies abide by. Tell me, what if I got on the stadium PA and chanted a mantra? I get the feeling you might get a little pissed off. What if I got on the stadium PA (remember, this is paid for by government funds of one sort or another) and sang a Muslim prayer call?
I get the idea that you’re the type of person (and you can do the internet searches for these–I’m too damned tired) who on the one hand protested the building of a mosque and on the other sued to keep a Christian cross on the city seal and sued to override city zoning laws to put a 100’ cross on I-35. These all happened in Edmond, OK, BTW, to make your search easier. But while you’re feeling persecuted, look up who won what. IIRC the mosque was built but without the requisite system for the Imam to call for prayer (zoning, after all), the cross, IIRC is still on the city seal, and the mondo cross was built a little smaller but still with a variation on the codes.
Piss off, you self-righteous, “I’m right, you’re wrong, and that’s all there is to it and to hell with reason,” if-I-want-to-be-Christian-you’d-better-at-least-pretend-to-be-one-too, just-plain-WRONG-and/or-badly-misinformed piece of ignorant, unlearned, closed-minded, human garbage. You pray when you want. You DO NOT, and I cite the Constitution, the Supreme Court of the United States, the legislature, and a whole lot of non-Christians as well as Christians (check out Americans United for Separation of Church and State–their leader is IIRC a Methodist minister), force me to listen to you perform your rituals with equipment I’ve helped to fund.
The ACLU has never, AFAIK, sued a student for leading a prayer with fellow students during a class break or outside of classtime. Prove me wrong.
And this analogy would be great if I were complaining about prayer in movies.
As it is, publicly funded prayer is clearly forbidden in the first ammendment, while profanity in movies is even MORE clearly allowed.
I grew up ina conservative southern town. When I was a wee lad it was ILLEGAL for stores to be open on Sunday. ILLEGAL. A few years later the county repealed that law. It was legal for the stores to be open AFTER 12:00 noon, but they couldn’t sell items like beer or wine, toilet paper, diapers, or tampons. WTF!?!?! Diapers? Toilet PAPER? What, you can’t SHIT on Sunday??
jenkinsfan,
::gets out soapbox, clears throat::
I live about 15 miles away from where this issue is being contested heavily. One minister (Ralph Sexton) started this stupid fucking “We Still Pray” campaign. (He convinced himself and other mindless fucknuts that the state was imposing on his rights because a local public high school wasn’t allowed have prayer over the PA before a football game. My taxes helped pay for that PA. I AM NOT a Christian, why should I be obligated to pay for YOUR PRAYER?) Now everyone is all up in arms saying “We Still Pray”. Hey, I’m happy for you. No-one EVER tried to stop you. For the life of me, I can’t understand these people. Take your fucking religion and practice it all you want, but GET IT THE FUCK OUT OF MY FACE! There A LOT of us out there who WILL NOT STAND for your dogma anymore. We are tired of “in god we trust”, swearing on the bible, the 10 Commandments in the courtrooms, blue laws, and your sick, patronizing hatered of all things not christian. We have tried to be patient, understanding, tolerent of your missionary tactics and invasionary paradigm. You have TOTAL AND COMPLETE FREEDOM to practice your faith. All we EVER ASKED was to give us the SAME CONSIDERATION. Because this one simple thing was above your ability, I give you a resounding “FUCK OFF”.
::steps down realizing futility of words::
hey, I love you all, I mean it,
blast
I’m actually interested in discussing this further, but I’m going to apologize to, Freyr for hijacking his thread.
Um, well, let me welcome you to the club. My money goes to pay for the science teacher’s salary that teaches evolution, it goes to pay for certain safe sex programs that I oppose, and sometimes it is used by the state to fund abortions that I don’t agree with.
When did you ever stand for it? By that statement you admit to me that you have all the freedom you want to disagree with me and not participate in Christianity. It’s becoming obvious to me now how afraid of Christians you are, how abused by them you have been, and how communistic we’ve become. Maybe someday we’ll give you the right to openly disagree with us. :rolleyes:
Do you have cites where the ACLU disputed the right for students to lead spontaneous, unoffical prayer?
In this thread I quoted an ACLU official who actually supported an incidence of school prayer.
Martin Mayne, president of the Houston chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said:
It is common knowledge that the ACLU opposed prayer at public football games, and Flymaster posted the quote that supports this. Go back and read what has been written.
jenkinsfan, I have moved this topic to a new thread at Great Debates. You can read my reply there.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=49205
Straw man argument. The issue isn’t against public prayer, no matter the deity, denomination, etc. Public prayer isn’t the problem. Though you’re not talking about the freedom of a devout Muslim to kneel in the middle of a sidewalk if needs be and pray toward Mecca, now are you?
The distinction is state enforced and endorsed support of any religion. Under a republic of laws guarnteeing freedom of religion, anyone can worship as they choose, free of state pressures or sanctions.
Don’t expect me to pity devout Christian kids in public schools–or their parents. They’re the majority already! ::rolls eyes:: The simple point is this: blue laws, and enforced de facto religious observance run counter to genuine freedom–and disgrace the principles our republic supposedly embodies.
Frankly, I ain’t worried about Jocks For Christ or Cheerleaders In Fellowship. The Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Bhuddist, pagan, etc. citizen stands in more peril.
Veb
Actually, you missed my point. I’ve always found it amusing that breeders and gays usually refer the same sexual practices when insulting somebody. (Before anyone gets on their high horse, no political commentary is implied at all - it’s just one of life’s little inconsistencies that gives me a giggle.)
Sua