no, your union (provided you have one) should make that rule.
is it dishonest? yeah, perhaps a bit. can you fault him? not at all. do i like it? not really.
if it’s a problem, let rules (like laws aren’t some sort of rules any more) dictate what can and can’t be done. he was a damned goon, and he got in when the getting was good.
now that they’re punishing steroid use (jail time would be nice) future users can be banned from the hall of fame.
Never said anything like this. However, I think it’s very likely that a MLB in which steroids were prevelent would be one in which the fan base slowly erodes over the course of time.
If youngsters know at a young age that MLBer are juicers and they start seeing the Lyle Alzado’s of the world dying young, the appeal of playing baseball (and the subsequent adult fandom) will diminish and the game will be harmed. The MLB could legalize steroids, but it’d be bad for business and bad for young people.
All I’m saying is that using 'roids is not just about one man’s choice, it has bigger implications. For that reason the ban is a good rule. I have carte blanche to vilify rule breakers as I see fit.
Well, how would you feel if someone set a record for the fastest lap in a NASCAR vehicle but it was actually in a rocket-car? That’s the kind of stuff we’re talking about here.
How would you feel if someone won a race because they poisoned their competitors? Steroid use is cheating and cheating is something no one should want in a competitive sport.
If you want to be a cheater that’s fine, and if you want to cheer cheaters on that’s fine, but you’re being unreasonable if you think that is something we should just shut up and take.
You can take your bullshit libertarian ideology out of here because it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. We aren’t talking about nanny states and we aren’t talking about being Bonds nanny. We’re talking about having a competitive game with rules, and when people find ways to contravene those rules that’s called cheating, and the idea that just because they cheat spectacularly it should be encouraged and cheered is asinine.
Anyways, if you really want to know how steroid users are dangerous ask Bonds wife how much she liked getting smacked around by her roided up husband.
How is that more important? We should ignore cheating just because he’s one of only a small group of people that make it to the major league level?
Yes, anyone who is a regular player in the major leagues is probably better at baseball than anyone an average joe has ever met in their entire life. But there is still a huge level of difference between Babe Ruth and Wilcy Moore.
I’ll go back to a NASCAR analogy because I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you posting about NASCAR in the past.
What about racers that win because of egregious cheating? And we know this shit happens, and we know that to a degree every trace team tries to get away with as much as possible, but NASCAR is highly regulated so it isn’t near as bad as people try and say it is. Bu nonetheless everything you said at Bonds you could say about someone who gets the checkered flag at the Daytona 500 and it comes out that his car was in violation of so many regulations it was unprecedented in the history of the sport, that person would be taking risks and that’s his prerogative, and you could give me the exact same car and I’d total it almost instantly, I’ll never be able to drive a race car professional. But I guess since my hypothetical cheater can, and that that demonstrates some level of skill, he should just get a pass on cheating. And we shouldn’t even care about it and in fact we should respect it seems to be what you’re saying, especially since you’re waving a flag for Johnson.
You can say what you want about Babe Ruth and say his home runs are only because of the right field fence, but you’d be wrong.
Babe Ruth set distance records in every single park he ever played in as a an MLB player, that means he set a record in EVERY American League park at that time and EVERY National League park in which he ever played (which was only during the World Series and briefly at the very end of his career.)
And in Babe Ruth’s career he hit 367 home runs in away games and 346 at home, so I see little evidence to support your bitching.
And the live ball benefitted everyone who was capable of hitting it, and many ballplayers indeed saw extreme increases in home run ability. There were others who could swat pretty damn well in Ruth’s time, Lou Gehrig hit a lot of home runs too. But Ruth hit them the best and the farthest.
If the juiced ball was such an edge, why didn’t EVERYBODY hit as many homers as the Babe? He was miles ahead of the competition. He was hitting 50 homers a season when nobody else was hitting 30.
As for the short wall, the Babe actually hit more homers on the road than at Yankee Stadium- he was NOT a dead pull hitter.
It’s not cheating if it’s within the rules at the time. Tell me what rule Barry Bonds broke. NASCAR’s rules have evolved to cover the most esoteric of minutia because someone finds a way around the current rules, wins, and then sits back with a smile on their face because they beat the system. Given the harsh penalty thrown at Chad Knaus at Daytona the level of “cheating” has come to the forefront, and most of the comments from the drivers and the crew chiefs say that if you’re not trying to get an edge you’re not trying. They know how the game is played and they play it. The fans get upset only because their driver or crew chief didn’t think of it first.
Because he lead the way. As his career progressed he was protected by the best hitters in baseball on the best team in baseball while the pitchers were struggling to adapt to the new reality. It’s reminiscent of the juiced ball in the late 1990s. The pitchers were getting shelled and complained incessantly about the flattened seams and the loss of control they had as a result. The hitters loved it because they were getting fat pitches that they could crush. Some took advantage, others didn’t.
Am I questioning his greatness? Not at all. But to deny that the park was built around him is folly. He benefitted from it in the same way that Joe DiMaggio was restrained by it, and Ted Williams was restrained by Fenway.
If they could win don’t you think they would try?
Who did Barry Bonds poison?
I’m not being unreasonable. I’m making my case as to why it doesn’t matter. You can disagree, and you clearly do. Good for you.
You know, up until now this conversation was pretty civil. I can’t remember the last time I was Pitted, but if you feel that strongly about my “bullshit libertarian ideology” feel free to Pit me. In the meantime, try to get a grip, wouldya?
Yeah, because only steroid freaks beat their wives.
Gee what a surprise. I thought his head grew all by itself. Kick him out. Strike the records. By doping, he isn’t only cheating the game, he isn’t only endangering his own life, he is endangering others. Athletes that juice set performance standards that clean athletes cannot meet. If the understanding, justified or not, is that you have to juice in order to compete, then a lot of athletes are going to make the wrong decision. Rather than let him continue and set forth a negative example, I say let’s throw the book at him and show the young athlete what happens when you get caught.
I repeat: has Barry Bonds held anyone back from the major leagues?
I’m beginning to think that by competition you mean “competition for records”, because what one man does does not affect another man except when you compare statistics, and since a .300 hitter with 30 dingers and 100 RBIs will always have a job I don’t get what you people are saying about competition.
Probably. If he wasn’t juicing, he very well could have been retired and his roster spot occupied by someone else.
No, but it certainly increases the incidence. As I pointed out earlier upthread (and you ignored), anabolic steroids cause extreme aggression in users. That aggression is taken out in other areas besides the playing field. Why on earth would you defend the use of something that has been directly linked as a direct cause of physical abuse? Are you seriously expecting me to believe that home run records are worth a few cases of battery?
By whom? Someone who couldn’t hit water if they fell out of a boat? Or someone who couldn’t catch a cold? There are lots of those types of players out there that are currently on MLB rosters. Why aren’t they responsiblr for holding people back as well? Probably because the minor leaguers pushing up aren’t even as good as they are.
But yeah, I can see how (even before the juice) a HOF and MVP player could be holding someone back.
This argument holds no water. If a player is good enough to play he is accomodated with a move to a different position or his predecessor is waived. So, who was pushing up on Barry Bonds, and can you seriously say that he is in any way better than Barry, juiced or no?
What difference does that make? No matter who his spot would’ve eventually been taken by, nor how well that player performed, the statement was that had he not been juicing, he probably would have retired. Who takes his spot and how well that person does isn’t a factor.
I wish this was the pit; I’d have a few choice words for some here.
Some would allow players to perform on crystal meth since the rules don’t strictly forbid it, and even though it is an illegal substance.
As to BB, I put forth that though he was/is a great player, by adding to his skills with steroids he changed outcomes of games. How about a homerun he hit that just cleared the fence and won a game. He took a crappy swing at it but with his extra strength, instead of being a warning track flyout, it became a dinger.
So you can blah,blah,blah about how he’s only hurting himself. Bullshit, he’s changing outcomes.
It boils down to what you believe is the essence of sports. Is it to win at all costs, or to win fairly?
If you’re an “at all costs” person, I hate you down to your DNA and hope to never have you as a neighbor and hope you don’t spawn another generation who thinks like you.
Weasels who always look for loopholes sicken me and have no place in proper society. They should be penned up and allowed to devour each other, away from reasonable people.
You’re in NY and I recall you being a Yankees fan (although I could be incorrect).
Do you hate the Yankees because they have a ridiculously high payroll? Do you forsake your team’s 1996 World Series because of Jeff’s catch? Do you disavow your team because Sheffield and Giambi use/d steroids?
Jeff’s catch was out of the Yankees hands, an umpire’s call is the law of the game; not a loophole.
Having a ridiculously high payroll is not a loophole.
I do disavow those players. I wish they’d dump those two buffoons today.
I would have no problem with George coming to his senses and actually watching his purse-strings.
Bonds might have pure talent, but he has no integrity.
Whoa! I understand that sports topics tend to get people upset, but please keep in mind what forum you’re in. If a genial discussion about a sports superstar has got you this worked up, then it might be worth it to take a step back and calm down a bit.
As it is, this thread belongs in Cafe Society since it’s about a sports figure and his sports-related activities. I’ll move it over there. (Of course, Cafe Society also has rules about keeping the conversation polite.)