Baseball all-star voting

The balloting is finally in, and we have our complete rosters for the National and American leagues.

In case you’re not a baseball fan, balloting was conducted online at at ballparks; fans chose the starting lineups for each team. The managers of each team (Bob Brenly for the NL, Joe Torre from the AL - it’s the managers of last year’s World Series teams) pick the reserves and the pitching staff.

This year, a new wrinkle. The “30th man” - the last guy on each roster - was also selected via Internet voting.

I don’t mean to debate this year’s rosters. I’d like to take a look at how they’re put together, though.

Is the current system okay the way it is? Can it be improved at all? Is it best to leave it as it is, imperfect but acceptable?

The way I see it, four main groups can select the rosters:

  1. The Fans
  2. The Commish
  3. The Managers of the two teams
  4. The Sportswriters

Now, the fans do it now, and overall they do a pretty fair job. But the problem is that the voters aren’t just diehard fans; they’re also just-stopping-by fans, fairweather fans. They go to the park maybe once a year to see a game, and they get one or more of these ballots to fill out. So they punch out the names of the guys they recognize, or the players from their favorite team, or guys whose name begins with “S”, or something like that. Now, certainly this doesn’t apply to a lot of the voters - but there have been numerous years in which a player who had missed much of the first half of the season was voted to start in the All-Star game. Players have been voted in even when they were having subpar seasons, simply because they were popular with the fans. To me, that’s not terribly impartial.

The Commissioner, of course, would be a poor choice because of current public opinion of him - he’s reviled by a lot of people. Sio no, I’d have to say B. Selig wouldn’t be a good choice. But even if he were not the Commish, I’m not sure the office would be all that impartial, either. So I say nay to this choice, too.

Then there are the two managers, who already choose the reserves and pitching staff. But the recent controversy - ok, so it happens almost every year - is that the managers pick a lot of players from their own team. I think New York and Arizona have 5-6 players each. Even if their players were very deserving, this might still make it look like favortism.

And finally, there’s the sportswriters. So let me try this plan out on you guys. (There are plenty of guys on here who know more about baseball than I do.)

What if, say, 1 sportswriter was taken from each team’s city (2 each from NY and Chi), for a total of 30 writers. Then an additional 5-10 were taken from print and electronic media who were either national writers (your Gammons, your Reilly) or were from newspapers in towns that didn’t have a baseball team.

So that’d give you 40 guys. Ok, so maybe that’s a lot. But they’d be voting from the first day of the season, one vote per person.

These guys would vote for the starting lineups, then the reserves, then the pitching staff.

Now, one can certainly argue that this is the fan’s game. Ok, I’ll grant you that. But isn’t it in the best interests of the game itself for the best players of the year to be playing? Is it really the best game when washed-up players get another shot at an All-Star appearance when they don’t really warrant it for that season?

In my opinion, sportswriters generally have the best interests of the game at heart. These are the guys who vote players into the Hall of Fame, and that process, while flawed, is still a pretty sound one. You don’t hear many cries to remove players from the Hall, but you frequently hear cries that Player A should never have been in the All-Star game.

Thoughts?

Current system good? Or can be improved?

one-time-only bump

The sportswriters certainly don’t do an especially good job of voting for the MVP, Cy Young and Rookie of the Year Awards; I’d say they probably blow a third to half the votes. Any group of nimrods who can give George Bell the 1987 MVP (and I’m a Blue Jays fan!) is of questionable judgment.

Personally, I like fans voting for the All Star Game for the simple reason that it lets the fans vote for the All Star Game. In my opinion allowing fans the vote is an end in and of itself; fan involvement gets fans interested and makes them feel good about the sport. Taking the vote away from the fans would be an enormous PR debacle. Letting them have it gets fans interested, gets them logging on to the MLB website to see how the vote is going, etc.

I personally believe that for all its flaws the system is actually pretty good. I even like the rule that every team must have one representative, although I seem to be the only one who does.

Some have proposed fans vote but that their votes be allocated to a park pool (or an at-large pool) to weigh votes, sort of like a representative democracy - e.g. Roberto Alomar finished first in voting at Shea so he gets 10 points, Jose Vidro finished second at Shea so he gets 7 points, etc. etc. for every ballpark. That method would prevent fans oin one park from stuffing the ballot box; even if they stuffed their hometown boys could only get X points; whether Roberto wins the balloting at Shea by 1 vote for 1 million votes doesn’t change how many points he gets. this would be an interesting system if you could find a good way of accounting for at-large and Internet votes, since it would get rid of the major problem with fan voting, which is box stuffing.

I’m not sure that’s the major problem - I’d say it’s more of people voting for whomever they feel like voting, not on any basis of merit. At least the sportswriters give the impression that they vote on the basis of how a player performed.

And remember who’s voting, too - it’s not just me or you or any other baseball geek. It’s all of the fairweather fans who come out for one game every now and then, who don’t recognize a soul on the ballots and who aren’t interested in the All-Star Game anyway, so they vote for the players on their hometown team. That’s no way to vote for the best players of the season.

It’s worthy of mention that baseball actually condones ballot stuffing, to a degree, since one can vote up to 30 times online and countless times at the ballparks. At the ballpark, I can understand why it might be tough to police stuffing, since they don’t ask for ID before each person votes. But online? Why up to 30 times?

I agree that ballot-stuffing and un-knowledgable voters are a problem with the current system. (Rick-Jay’s right, of course, that taking it away from the fans would cause a big brouhaha.)

What about letting all the managers pick the starting line-up. Presumably, the managers are very knowledgable about all the players and how they’re doing this season. So, in the AL, each manager would assemble a dream team out of AL players. How do you keep the managers from just picking players from their own team? Forbid them from voting for their own players. They would have to vote for players from other teams only. It will all even out in the end. Whoever gets the most votes for each position starts. In case of a tie, the All-Star team manager gets the deciding vote. Then the All-Star team manager chooses the reserves as usual.

And I like the rule where each team must have at least one representative. Why do people object to that?

They object to it mainly because when a team’s really doing lousy (and with the gap between haves and have-nots larger than ever), it can be argued that none of the players are worthy of being an all-star. But because of the rule, someone’s chosen from that team, which often means that a more deserving player on a team that already is represented doesn’t get to go, even if he has the numbers to warrant selection.

Also, if they’re going to keep that rule in there, then they absolutely have to increase the roster size - they’ve added 4 teams since 1992, but they haven’t increased the roster. This means it’s likely that every year good players are overlooked.

I don’t have a real problem with the manager selecting the team, although favortism might reign supreme. I like your idea, Green Bean - they can’t vote for their own players.

Bob Brenly was grousing recently about the fans selecting the starters - “It’s my team,” he complained. Like hell it is. This is nothing more than an exhibition. Your team is the Arizona Diamondbacks. Quit it with the petulant attitude and manage the game.

Yeah, exactly. It’s an exhibition game, and the voting is all wacky. Therefore, I wish they’d stop saying “Joe Shmoe, 5-time All-Star” as if it were a meaningful statistic.

Well, I wouldn’t go that far, personally. I think it’s an honor to be selected, no matter who did the selecting.

Actually, Dan, I believe the rosters have been expanded. I don’t think All-Star teams had 30 players before; in the early 90’s there were 28 players per team.

Yes, but have they expanded since the league as a whole expanded? The reason I mention it is that others have brought the point up as well (meaning it’s probably not just my mismemories).

By the way, the fans did get it right almost across the board this year, IMO - only Scott Rolen of the Phillies and Manny Ramirez of the Red Sox got in when they didn’t really deserve to.

Why not try something novel and have the PLAYERS themselves vote.

They, more then the fans, more then the writers, and more then the managers, know who is and who isn’t deserving of playing in the All-Star game.

But of course, that idea is so brilliant and lacks any flaws, so it will never happen.

Ehhhh, doesn’t really matter. Thanks to ESPN, every All-Star game has been WAY, WAY, WAY over-hyped, so as to drain anything resembling life from the games.

Actually, they don’t necessarily know more than anyone else. Because of the unbalanced schedule, they’ll see some players only a couple times. This isn’t so bad for the position players, but for the pitchers? Heck, they might not see an ace from another team at all.

Well, it does have two major flaws:

  1. IT TAKES THE VOTE AWAY FROM THE FANS!!! The one way fans are empowered in Major League Baseball, and you’re gonna take that away? Be prepared for a huge PR disaster. Be prepared for dramatically lower All-Star Game ratings. And, IMHO, it’s just wrong. Fan participation is healthy and good.

  2. Frankly, I simply do not believe players are any better at choosing All-Stars than we are. For one thing, they’re a little busy at this time of year. For another, they don’t see each other play all that much; each team plays 18-20 other teams.

The obvious parallel to this would be the Gold Gloves, which are voted on by managers and coaches. You would think they have all the same advantages the players do, and yet they do a TERRIBLE job picking the Gold Gloves. A few years ago they gave Rafael Palmiero a Gold Glove for a position he didn’t actually play. It’s customary for them to just vote the GG to whomever’s won it a lot in the past, even if the guy is over the hill and isn’t even a good fielder anymore.

Y’know, there’s this thing called Television, which has A LOT of baseball games on it, and I think it’s a fairly safe bet that the players watch a good number of games.

Rafael Palmiero got the Gold Glove for 1st basemen, a position which he DOES/DID in fact play, the year that he won the award.

What people bitched about was the fact that he only played first base for something like 30-40 games, with the rest of his time spent at DH.

Not likely. Many of the games are played at the same time; the late games (10ish on the East Coast) usually aren’t seen by the players whose teams were in the earlier games, as they’re on their way home, or in the locker room, or out on the town. I’d be willing to bet most players rarely watch games on TV.

The Palmeiro thing was a notable fiasco, but - and I could be mistaken - I thought it was more of an anomaly, not the norm. Granted, sometimes players with better batting averages get the GG over those with lesser BAs (even though their fielding stats are similar), but have there been many outright screwups in that voting?

And RickJay, do you really think fewer people would watch because they weren’t voting? You think that’s why people are watching now? And aren’t the ratings for the All-Star game down from previous years, anyway?

What about Clemens getting the Cy Young last year? He sure as hell didn’t deserve that. Not even the most deserving on his team…Mussina was.

Second, contrary to popular belief…the All-Star game is about who the fans want to see. Not the best players. Although, those frequently coincide. If the fans want to see some popular player who is no longer playing at his prime and his no longer the best at his position, then so be it. That’s who should get the start.

The casual fans aren’t the ones sitting online voting 25 times. They aren’t the ones casting 25 paper ballots. The fans who care are the ones who most influence the voting.

You mean people actually care about the all-star game?

[sub]I’ve always thought of it as baseball’s version of the Pro Bowl. yawn[/sub]

Not true, tracer. No one debates whether James Lofton was a good choice for the Pro Bowl. Everyone debates the validity of the baseball All-Star rosters. Maybe this is only because the game is played at midseason, rather than a full week after the championship game. If you opened balloting for the Pro Bowl up to the fans, I don’t think you’d get half of the responses you do for the All-Star game. (Come to think of it, I’m not sure how the other sports choose their all-stars - doesn’t seem like it’s a fan vote, though.)

Can’t agree with you, Neurotik - AFAIK the fans didn’t always vote, and the intention of the game from the outset was to have the best players of the year square off. In fact, the idea was to allow fans of one league to see the stars of the other league (hmm, sounds like interleague play). Besides, if you wanted it to be 100% for the fans, with no regard to actual baseball, you could open up the balloting to retired players, celebrities, etc. :slight_smile: The fact is, although fans want to see stars, I find it difficult to believe that that’s all they care about. I think actual baseball fans are smarter than that. If only true-blue baseball fans voted, we’d probably have more-legitimate all-stars.

What I dislike is that ballot stuffing is not only allowed, but encouraged. I voted online, where they informed me I could vote 25 times.

I know ballot stuffing is going to happen, but it should be discouraged. And online, it should not be allowed at all. Then we might get a more accurate reading on who the fans really want.