Baseball: Hall of Fame Debate

Great Debates
1

Hey, baseball fans. I figure it’s time to start up a thread about who and who should not be elected to the Hall of Fame.

For this thread I’d like to limit us to upcoming “classes” of retired players, rather than players who are presently on the ballot and might be elected, such as Gary Carter or Ron Santo.

Upcoming classes: (Note that this is not a complete listing; if anyone will be eligible you feel should also be discussed, have at it)

2003:
Eddie Murray
Ryne Sandberg
Lee Smith
Fernando!

2004:
Joe Carter
Paul Molitor
Dennis Eckersley
El Presidente
Jimmy Key

2005:
Wade Boggs

2006:
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Orel Hershiser
Darryl Strawberry

2007:
Tony Gwynn
Big Mac
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Paul O’Neill
Eric Davis

The link to Paul O’Neill doesn’t work because the apostrophe screws up the coding. You can cut and paste.

Have at it!

2

Here would be my votes:

2003: Smith, Fernando! and probably Murray.

2004: Eck, Molitor

'05: Boggs

'06:

'07: Gwynn, McGuire, Ripken (and Davis someday, but not the firts year)

3

Or the first year either.

4

2003: None

2004: Eckersley

2005: Boggs

2006: Hershiser

2007: Gwynn, McGuire, and Ripken

5

Subjective impression only – I’ll look at the numbers in detail later.

2003 Lee Smith. Ryne Sandberg

2004 Dennis Eckersley

2005 Wade Boggs

2006 Albert Belle, Will Clark, Orel Hershiser

2007 Tony Gwynn, Big Mac, Cal Ripken Jr.

6

Of course, Jesse Orosco will get in the first year he’s eligible – 2035. :slight_smile:

Zev Steinhardt

7

If I could vote for the HOF:

-2003: Murray and Sandberg;

-2004: Molitor and Eckersley;

-2005: Boggs;

-2006: Maybe Will Clark but I don’t think there are any clear-cut HOF caliber players this year;

-2007: Gwynn, McGwire, and Ripken.

But why should Davis wait? He’s either qualified for the HOF or he’s not. It’s not like he’s going to do something after 2007 that’s going to improve his chances.

8

Fun! Hey - since this puppy’s in GD, and since I’m stuck in the office for another two hours, how about the reasoning behind your choices, so we can get riled up and argue and all that fun stuff?

2003:

Murray (YES): I’m not sure how this one is a debate, and I’d love to hear your reasoning, Minty. The man is eigth - ever - in RBI, won three gold gloves, and hit 30 home runs every year back when that was a significant achievement. He’s an easy choice for me.

Sandberg (YES): Much tougher call… if Bill Mazeroski is in, Ryno really ought to be. He had some amazing seasons at the plate, and owned the Gold Glove. Mazeroski may have been a better defensive player, but Sandberg’s advantage as a hitter is significantly greater than Maz’s advantage as a fielder.

Valenzuela (NO): Come on… his statistics are virtually identical to those of Frank Viola. Frank Viola! A few brilliant seasons do not a Hall of Fame career make.

Smith (NO): I can’t really defend this one, but he doesn’t get my vote. The statistics are inarguable, but I can’t help thinking of him as a sort of compiler, who had his dominant seasons but never had that transcendant feel to him.

Unlike, for example…

2004

Eckersley (YES): Who was so incredibly dominant during his heyday that I can’t imagine keeping him out of the Hall. I mean, when Eck came in the game, it was over. Over.

Carter (NO): We need a “Hall-of-Really-Good-Players” for guys like this.

Martinez (NO): I can’t understand how someone could cast a vote for Valenzuela and not this guy - career ERA was identical, but Martinez won more than 50 more games. But Martinez never won a Cy Young, nor 20 games… he’s out.

Key (NO): Admirably consistent, never spectacular. Another one for the HRGP.

Molitor (YES): But I’m biased. I just loved this guy’s game, and wanted him to play for my team. He just did whatever he had to.

2005

Boggs (YES): Well, duh.

2006

Belle (NO): Didn’t sustain his production long enough for my taste.

Clark (NO): I want to say yes to this guy, I really do. Did you ever see a hitter with a more perfect swing? His numbers are very nearly as good as Belle’s, plus he was a better defensive player, drew more walks, and lasted longer, but… never dominant enough.

Strawberry (NO): And that is the greatest shame of all.

Hershiser (YES): Again, how could you vote for Valenzuela and not this guy? 1988 was one of the two or three best single seasons for a pitcher in a long, long time. His scoreless innings streak is an incredible accomplishment, and he had a few years where he was just unbeatable… plus he was always the guy you wanted on the mound in a big spot… even if he’d started the day before.

2007

McGwire (YES): He changed the game when he was in the lineup. He’s easy.

Gwynn (YES): In a walk.

Ripkin (YES): Of course.

Davis (NO): Especially not in a year with McGwire, Gwynn, and Ripkin.

  • Frank
9

Murray, Molitor, Eckersley, Hershiser, Gwynn, McGwire, Ripken.

None of this “not on the first ballot” crap, either - a guy belongs or he doesn’t belong, period.

10

IMO, the Hall of Fame is a place for the great ones only. Knowing who gets in is a visceral experience, you just know.

2003: Murray - One of three players to have 500 HR’s, 1500 RBI and 3000 Hits (Mays, Aaron).

2004: Molitor (3000 Hits always gets you in) and Eck (best reliever of his era + his starting career)

2005: Boggs (see Molitor + led league in hitting 5 times)

2006: Hershiser (with some hesitation - for his incredible 1988 campaign alone. However, he wasn’t the best in the business for more that a year or so)

2007: Gwynn (best hitter of his Generation) Ripken (3000 Hits + the Streak) and McGwire (Power - the quintessential home run hitter).
All others, thanks for playing, you were wonderful, but you don’t belong in the hall.

11

Yeah, you’re right. He has the misfortune of coming up with McGuire, Gwynn, and Ripken, though, and he really doesn’t match up to them. I’d have to look at his numbers more closely but my first impression is leave him out.

12

2003:
Eddie Murray
Ryne Sandberg
Fernando!

2004:
Paul Molitor
Dennis Eckersley
El Presidente

2005:
Wade Boggs

2006:

2007:
Tony Gwynn
Big Mac
Cal Ripken, Jr.

13

3 Gold Gloves at 1B isn’t much of an achievement. No MVP’s, nor any years where he should have been MVP. A career .836 OPS at the preeminent power position, and it only went over .900 five times in his 20 years, despite playing in a generally offensive era. Murray’s very close, but he just doesn’t do it for me. I concede it could go either way.

14

2003:
Eddie Murray

2004:
Jimmy Key

2006:
Albert Belle

2007:
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Eric Davis

*Note how I only picked former Orioles.

15

Now tat we have a debate, I’ll jump in.

MURRAY - Definitely. Minty, Murray’s numbers may not look good by today’s standards, but he didn’t play in Home Run Fiesta Time, either, and he played in a pitcher’s park. I’d say he’s pretty clearly over the HOF line.

SANDBERG - I’m not nearly as enthusaistic about Sandberg as others; I don’t see how he’s all that much better than Lou Whitaker, at least over the course of his career. Obviously he did have a higher peak. I’d have to say he would not be high on my list. There’s a real mystique about the guy, but objectively speaking it’s hard to justify ranking him very far past Whitaker. Few players with similar careers are in the Hall. I may be underestimating his defensive skills.

LEE SMITH - No. Smith hung around a long time and piled up a lot of saves, but to be honest, piling up saves doesn’t translate to a lot of value. He was a good pitcher but when you get right down to it he was about half the pitcher Dave Stieb was. Relief aces are overrated.

FERNANDO - Great at times but blew his arm out too early.

2004

MOLITOR - Sort of the fast Eddie Murray; never the best player around and had very little defensive value, but he was good for a really long time. Had several huge years when his team needed him. He’s in.

ECKERSLEY - Yes. Weird career numbers, but overall he did a lot to help a lot of teams win.

CARTER - Would be the worst player ever elected to the Hall of Fame if he made it.

KEY - Great pitcher, but wasn’t around long enough. Is this the first Hall of Fame year that will have a strong Blue Jay flavour?

MARTINEZ - Here’s a prediction; if Martinez goes 5-10 years without being elected, which I think we all agree will be the case, his supporters will start to harangue the BBWAA into electing him by accusing them of racism. He was a fine pitcher but not a Hall of Famer.

2005

BOGGS - Yup.

2006

BELLE - A great hitter, but not so great, IMHO, that his short career is enough to merit consideration.

CLARK - On the edge; a better hitter than today’s standards make him look. Short career for a slugger, though. No.

STRAWBERRY - Not even close even if he was a choirboy. I believe The Straw Man is the only player to ever get EXACTLY 1000 RBI.

HERSHISER - Despite the huge 1988, not really a Hall of Famer.

2007

GWYNN - Absolutely.

RIPKEN - Absolutely.

MCGWIRE - Absolutely.

DAVIS - Have to say no, never. A terrific player when he was healthy, but his career was just too short, and like Belle, it’s not as if it was a short career with three MVP Awards and Ruthian stats.

O’NEILL - Nah.

16

He only played in Dodger Stadium for 4 years. And except for 1990, his numbers were pretty bad during those four seasons, even given the park effect. I don’t recall what pre-Camden Baltimore was like, but if you can adjust those figures for me, I’ll be happy to take that into account. Like I said, it’s close, but he justr doesn’t do it for me.

17

2003 : Eddie Murray and Ryne Sandberg
2004 : Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley
2005 : Wade Boggs
2006 : None of the Above
2007: Tony Gwynn, Mark McGwire and Cal Ripken Jr.

There are a lot of people on the list who would have been in serious contention for the hall if they either had a longer career (Will Clark…or god help us Albert Belle) or if they hadn’t blown it in various ways (Eric Davis or Darryl Strawberry). Of course if you start letting in people like that then you will end up diluting the hall of fame to the level of the Hockey Hall of fame where sometimes it just seems that if you play a certain number of games you were in.

Keith

18

What about Jim Rice and Dwight Evans?

19

I think Murray will probably make it into the HOF. His having 500+ home runs (and almost all of them collected prior to the current home-run explosion), not to mention being 8th in total RBIs, is hard to ignore. And I won’t mind him getting in too much, but… I’d leave him off my ballot.

My problem with Murray is that he’s basically a better version of Darrell Evans. He’s a guy who played a lot of years, and was very good in almost all of those years, but was rarely great. The Black Ink and Grey Ink tests bear this out. From baseball reference.com:

Murray is well alove the average in the Grey Ink test, but well below it in the Black Ink test. For those who don’t know, the Black Int test measures leading the league in the important offensive categories, while the Grey Ink test measures finishing in the top 10 in the league. Murray had a lot of top 10 finishes during the course of his career, but he rarely lead his league in anything. If he gets in, it will, to some extent, be on the basis of his HR and RBI numbers, but Murray only lead his league in those two categories once, both in the strike shortened year of 1981, and he never lead the majors in either category. He had eight top 10 MVP voting finishes (which is impressive), but he never won the MVP. It’s something of a pattern with him, he was a really good player for a long time, but I don’t think there was a year when he was the best player in his league, much less the majors.

My personal opinion is that career numbers are not as important as how good the player’s best years were compared to his contempories, and by that standard Murray suffers. Obviously a player needs more than 1 very good year to get into the HOF (or Maris would be in), but ideally a player should be able to get into the HOF on the strenght of his best 10 year stretch. If McGuire had only played from '90 to '99, he would have missed a good '87 campaign, but I think he’d still be a lock. But I doubt Murray would be a serious canidate if he had only played from '81 to '90.

Bottom line, I’d have a hard time voting for a player with that low of a Black Ink score, esepcially when he played almost a fifth of his career at DH and the rest at 1B, as Murray did.

20

2003: Murray, Sandberg, Smith. Murray and Sandberg were the dominant players at their positions (certainly in their own leagues, arguably in the majors) for a good portion of their careers. Smith is the all-time saves leader. That can’t be ignored.

2004: Molitor. I’ve never cared too much for Eckersley. I mean, was he a great reliever…or a washed-up starter who found a way to strecth his career a bit? I can’t see him as a Hall of Famer.

2005: Boggs, but only if he doesn’t have the option of wearing a Devil Rays cap on his plaque. :slight_smile:

2006: None. But if Strawberry is by some miracle elected, they’d better retroactively admit Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson.

2007: Gwynn, Ripken and McGwire.