Baseball retired uniform numbers

Great Debates
1

It used to be that a player’s number being retired was a really special thing. It was bestowed upon a player who gave years and years of service to his team and who could be considered the the heart and soul of his team.

How things have changed.

The first uniform number retired was Lou Gehrig’s # 4 in 1939.

In the next decade, there were a total of three more numbers retired (Ruth, Yankees; Mel Ott, NY Giants; Carl Hubbell, Giants).

In the 50s, there were only four more (Feller, Inidans; DiMaggio; Yankees; Billy Meyer , Pirates (manager); Honus Wagner, Pirates).

In the 60s, there were eight more retired (including a sympathy retirement from the Colt .45s who would not have been retired had he not died in mid-career). For the record, they are:

Warren Sphan, Braves
Eddie Matthews, Braves
Ted Williams, Red Sox
Fred Hutchison, Reds
Jim Umbricht, Houston (the sympathy retirement)
Mickey Mantle, Yankees
Robin Robers, Phillies
Stan Musial, Cardinals.

After the 60s, however, there seems to have been an explosion in retired numbers.

In the 70s, there were 32 retired numbers, a 400% increase.
In the 80s, there were 41 retired numbers.
In the 90s, there were 34 retired numbers.
There are 3 so far this year.

Now, truth be told, I agree with most of the retirements. However, it seems that since the 70s, teams are using number retirements as ballpark attractions, rather than to honor a player or manager’s contribution to his team.

Some examples of numbers that I think are crazy to be retired (and to avoid bias, I’ll start with my favorite team).

New York Yankees:

Reggie Jackson. Sure he had five good years here, but that’s all they were, five years. If you retired every player who put in five good years…

Roger Maris. Yeah, he had the two great seasons in 1960 and 61. But that’s about it. He also only put in fivc productive seasons (and two non-productive ones).

Texas Rangers:

Nolan Ryan. Also with the team only five seasons, and only one of them was a great season.

Houston Astros:

Jim Umbricht and Don Wilson. Two sympathy retirements for players who died while in mid career. Umbricht has a career record of 9-5 with two seasons for the Colt .45s. At least Wilson won 104 games over 9 years. Hardly great, but it’s better than Umbricht’s.

Milwalkee Brewers

Rollie Fingers. He only played four seasons with the Brewers, of which his last one stunk. I don’t have a problem with the A’s retiring Fingers’ number, but the Brewers???

Hank Aaron. Same thing. Aaron only played two seasons with the Brewers at the very end of his career. They even retired his number before Atlanta did.

New York Mets:
Casey Stengel. This was the Casey after he was a genius[sup]*[/sup]. Maybe the Mets are all sentimental because he was their first manager and all that, but I really don’t think this one is deserved.

Tampa Bay Devil Rays:

Same arguments as above. I think Boggs’ number should be retired in Boston. I don’t think it should be here.

And while we’re ranting, what’s with the numbers retired for non-uniformed personnel? It was bad enough when California retried 26 for Gene Autry (they said he was the 26th man on the team). But since then, the Cardinals have retired 85 for August Busch and the Marlins retired 5 for Carl Barger (before they even played a single game!! Barger, the team’s president, died of a heart before they opened their first season). What’s next? Peter Angelos retires 0 for himself? Steinbrenner takes 99?

Anyway, that’s my take. Thank you for listening. Your opinion would be appreciated.

[sup]*[/sup] Warren Sphan played for Casey Stengel with the Braves in 1942 when the Braves finished 7th. He also played for him with the Mets in 1965, when the Mets finished in last. In between those years, of course, Stengel won all those pennants with the Yankees, which prompted Sphan to say “I’m the only guy who worked for Casey before he was a genius and after he was no longer a genius anymore.”

Zev Steinhardt

2

I believe the NFL makes teams ask the league for permission before retiring a number. This is because the league has a strict numbering system.

The Yankees will probably end up retiring Jeter’s #2 and whatever number Bernie Williams wears (I can’t think of it right now). Of course, Yankee fans think that anybody whoever played halfway decently for them should be in the Hall of Fame (like Don Mattingly and Thurman Munson.)

I also think that one of the worst ideas for retiring a number was when the Chicago White Sox retired Harold Baines’ number … in 1989. He has since returned to the team on two separate occasions.

3

Zev, I agree with you. Retiring numbers should not be taken lightly. The Giants have seven numbers retired, and two pre-number players honored, which might be more than most teams, but when your team has more Hall of Famers than any other, I suppose it’s excusable. :smiley: They did recently retire Orlando Cependa’s number - a whopping two weeks before he was inducted in the Hall of Fame. Glad my team isn’t retiring numbers left and right, anyway.

Not much of a debate here.

4

was traded to the White Sox very recently.

Interestingly, his number was retired by them several years ago.

5

Shifting sports, what’s really ridiculous is that the Cleveland Cavaliers, with their less than illustrious history (only 1 division championship and only 2 appearances in the conference finals in 30 years) have at least seven numbers retired (7-Bingo Smith, 34-Austin Carr, 42-Nate Thurmond, 25-Mark Price, 22-Larry Nance, 18-John “Hot Rod” Williams, and whatever number Brad Daugherty wore which I can’t remember just now.) Geez. How can such a lousy team have so many numbers retired?

6

That was one of the most surreal retirings ever. They traded the guy away and retired his number at the same time. Sort of “So long, we don’t need you anymore… and by the way, we like you.” I think if they wanted to retire his number, they should have waited until he retired as a player (as many teams have done with their former stars who went to other teams).

Zev Steinhardt

7

Since baseball players’ numbers all have to be 99 or less, how long will it be before no new numbers are available?
– tracer, who would really really like to be number 61.

8

A writer in Sports Illustrated summed up George Steinbrenner’s plans to honor every former Yankee. “Soon, the Yankees are going to have a Horace Clarke Day.”

Steinbrenner believes that having your uniform number retired by the Yankees means automatic induction into the Hall of Fame.

For the love of God, don’t put Mattingly and Munson in there!

9

Yes, the Harold Baines retired number thing never made much sense. But I think part of the reason it was done was at the time Harold’s number was retired, Sox management had just been through a re-evaluation of White Sox history, and had decided other former players (like Minnie Minoso, for example) needed their numbers retired. (The Sox had up to that time brought Minoso back once a decade to give him the record of for “player in most decades” – but bringing Minoso back in 1980 was certainly no more than a publicity stunt).

Baines may deserve to have his number retired, someday, but after his (now) third tour of duty with the Sox, its been “unretired” again. Seems pretty silly.

Here is a list of the players whose numbers have been retired by the White Sox: Nellie Fox, Harold Baines,
Luke Appling, Minnie Minoso, Luis Aparicio, Ted Lyons,
Billy Pierce, and Carlton Fisk (and of course, 42 for Jackie Robinson, a universally retired number for all teams by decree of MLB). Out of these numbers, only Baines (because he still plays) and Minoso (because he was never more than an above average player) really are questionable. I would put the others beside the best of the best with any teams all-time greats.

10

Interestingly, for whatever reason, my team, the Mets, have only retired three numbers (besides the ubiquitous 42, which MLB retired to honor Jackie Robinson. A fitting tribute, IMHO). Seaver’s 41, Stengel’s 31 and Hodges’ 14.

Seaver’s is deserved. He was the franchise during his career there. I’ll accept Stengel’s as a sentimental favorite; a reminder of the “Amazin’s” during their wacky first 5 or six seasons. Hodges deserves it because his influence made them contenders and champions. Were it not for his untimely death, they may have won more championships in the 70s.

What’s curious to me (and I assume the motivation is political) is that Davey Johnson’s not honored this way. He was manager when they won in 1986, and he has the best win/loss record of any manager in franchise history (or has Valentine surpassed that this season?).

[irony]Perhaps the reason the Mets haven’t retired more numbers is because they keep trading away all their good players.[/irony]

11

I think the Brewers retired Hank Aaron’s number not really for the few years he played with them, but for the many years he played in Milwaukee with the Braves before they moved to Atlanta. He even helped the team win a World Series in Milwaukee. I don’t think this is wholly inappropriate, but I do agree that teams are getting a little fast and loose with the retired numbers.

12

zev, some interesting choices. Reg, though, is a legitimate retired number for his overall stats, his “larger than life” personality (my brothers never agree with me for considering non-statistical stuff, so feel free to scoff), and his big-game player status (Mr. October and all that stuff).

563 home runs, 1702 RBIs, over a 21-year career. This amounts to 32.3 home runs and 97.7 RBIs for every 162 games he played (all of 2820 games). 15 seasons of 25 or more home runs. 7 seasons of 30 or more home runs. 2 of 40 or more. And remember, this was back in the era when homers weren’t cheap (e.g., Mike Schmidt, a contemporary, won 8 NL HR titles averaging 36.9 home runs per 162 games over his career).

13

Bob Cos,

I agree with you that Reggie had a great career. I have no problem with him being in the Hall of Fame (even if he did strike out 2500+ times). And… if his career numbers were all (or mostly) for one team, I would say that his number is a legitimate retire with that team. However, with the Yankees he only played five seasons. Sorry, for me, that doesn’t cut it. Schmidt (to use your example), on the other hand, played his entire career with the Phillies.

Zev Steinhardt

14

The Phillies have announced today that they will retire Jim Bunning’s #14 on Opening Day.

Give me a break.

Yes, Bunning is a Hall of Famer. Yes, he threw a perfect game for them. Yes, he even went to the senate for them. However he only had four good years (1964-67) with the Phillies. He never won 20 games with them (he did win 19 three of those four years), never took the Phillies to the postseason and didn’t even win 100 games with them for his career (he won 99).

Just another cheap promotional trick. If you want to have a “Jim Bunning” day to honor him, hey, go ahead. But don’t retire his uniform number.

Zev Steinhardt

15

Don’t be too hard on the Rangers for retiring Nolan Ryan’s number, zev. Until he showed up, the Texas Rangers were little more than a bad joke. He provided a credibility that the team had never had in its first two decades in Arlington, and is widely credited with providing the excitement about the team that got the Ballpark built.

16

It’s OT, but I’m a little puzzled by your take on Minoso, who really should be in the Hall of Fame. He’d be a shoo-in if it wasn’t for the fact that he wasn’t white enough to make the majors in his early 20s.

He certainly did more for the White Sox than the much-overrated Fisk, who has his best year with Boston.

Many of the questionable retirements seem to be teams with no history (e.g. Rangers with Nolan Ryan, or Devil Rays with Boggs) trying to manufacture some history.

My team, the Blue Jays, has elected to retire no numbers at all, but put some players and numbers on signs as a “Wall of honour” sort of thing. So Dave Stieb’s #37 is up there, but you could still wear #37. Of course, the Jays don’t have any players with Hall of Fame qualifications save guys who only played a year or two there, like Dave Winfield or Roger Clemens.

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RickJay *
**

Which is interesting, because I wouldn’t have a problem with the Jays retiring Steib’s number. He won 175 games for them (out of 176 for his career) and was the ace of the staff and a premier pitcher for over almost a decade.

Zev Steinhardt

18

Good for the Blue Jays. When I win the multi-state lottery and buy a baseball team, one of the first things I’ll do is unretire all the retired numbers. Let the great players be honored by some other suitable memorial, and by the fact that their numbers are in active play. No one will forget Horace Clarke because someone else is wearing his number :).

Then I’ll fire the local “homer” announcer, bring in good barbecue and end all between-innings radio station what’s-your-favorite-song promotions.

19

Speaking of California Angels players who have had their numbers retired-

Autry: I’m ok with it, he was a great guy and a die hard baseball fan first, owner second. To paraphrase the Cowboy- To be a baseball fan, you give your whole soul to the team. Then, when they don’t win or make it to the big game, you reach down and find a little more soul. This from a guy whose team never made it past the divisional series.

Carew: hell yeah. Rod Carew gave more to the Angels than almost everybody, then got screwed by them. They even erected a bronze statue of his daughter, who died of cancer, at the ballpark, then uncerimoniously dumped him.

Ryan: did a lot for the team, missed him when he went to TX.

Reese: Granted, Jimmy Reese’s biggest claim to fame was that he was once Babe Ruth’s roommate, but hey- any 90+ year old guy who can still put on the uniform and come out to the yard everyday is cool in my book. He was also an absolute witch with a fungo bat, right up until the day he died.

Can’t remember the others right now.

20

The Angels also retired #11 in honor of Jim Fregosi, the team’s first star to come out of its minor leagues, and even better, ended up being traded for Nolan Ryan.