Robinson family says no to retiring Clemente's number

In My Humble Opinion
1

Recently Major League Baseball has agreed to consider the retirement of Roberto Clemente’s number across baseball.

Sharon Robinson, Jackie Robinson’s daughter disagrees with this (link.)

Sharon Robinson goes on to say that Jackie’s number was retired because what he did changed all of baseball, not just for African-Americans but for Latinos as well.

That’s not really accurate in a lot of ways. Blacks have a different history in baseball than Latinos do. Blacks were strictly relegated to the Negro Leagues, and they had been there in the Negro Leagues playing baseball pretty much ever since it became a popular sport in the United States.

Latinos on the other hand had actually been in the majors as far back as 1902, as they weren’t specifically prohibited from playing like blacks were.

So really what Jackie Robinson really did has nothing to do with latinos at all, they were already in baseball, though to a very small degree when compared with today or the last twenty years.

Robinson and Clemente are both important baseball figures for different reasons. Robinson is important because he crossed the color barrier and ended segregation in baseball.

Clemente’s accomplishment may seem less, because he started playing in 1955, a good 50 years after Luis Castro was the first latino in baseball back in 1902.

However Clemente is the first (of what will be a huge number) of latino Hall of Famers. Right near the time Clemente died, and when he became a Hall of Famer is when the number of latin american players in the majors started to steadily increase, until today when they are an extremely important part of the sport. Clemente can be seen as having ushered in this era in baseball.

Aside from that Clemente was a great guy and humanitarian, and was probably the most aggressive and passionate baseball player when it came to giving aid to the poor in Puerto Rico.

Personally however I’m not really sure how I feel about this whole, sport-wide number retirement thing. I tend to like numbers being retired by the teams someone played for. To me, a number is retired by a team to honor the contributions that person made to the team. I don’t think Robinson or Clemente’s numbers should be retired sport-wide, but if we’re going to have Robinson’s retired I have no problem with Clemente’s being given the same honor. Both men are in the Hall of Fame already, and that’s really the biggest honor you can receive in baseball.

2

They touched on this on the Dan Partick Show this afternoon.

Basically, their opposition to retiring numbers was the argument “Where do you draw the line?” Would you go ahead and retire Lou Gherig’s number? How about Babe Ruth? Ted Williams? There were a couple of players who died in WWI and WWII. Should their numbers be retired? They then went on a Pat Tillman tangent, but then came back to baseball.

How do you give similar honors to players who never wore numbers, such as Ty Cobb?

Keith Olbermann brought up a practical matter, that there are only a limited number of numbers available (101, I guess). You can only retire so many before you had to leave some available for current and future players.

Overall, I think that retiring the 42 is good enough. Not only did Robinson break the color barrier, but the effects of this were probably felt far away from a baseball diamond as well, and changed our society as a whole. That’s not to take anything away from Clemente (my dad and grandfather would always talk about him and Campanella and how fun they were to watch). Like you said, it’s not like he was the first Latino in the majors. He may simply have been the best for a while.

3

There is a wild card in this debate. The Yanks have the only active #42 in Baseball and they will be retiring the number.

Mariano Rivera (possibly the greatest closer of all time) has always worn 42 and him and Mo Vaughn were grandfathered in or allowed to retain their numbers when 42 was retired.

I don’t know what Boston’s plans are for their Mo, but the Yanks have all but said they will retire #42. Will the Robinsons find this objectionable?

Jim

4

Robinson was a special case. Clemente, though great, was no where the same sort of pioneer. He did no break any particular barrier, since hispanics were in the Major League for years. Why was he any more a pioneer than Julio Becker, Minnie Minoso, Luis Arroyo, Reuben Gomez, Luis Olmo, Vic Power, Bobby Estalella, or Camelio Pasqual, all of whom were in the majors either before or at the same time Clemente came up? Granted, Clemente is the greatest of thost listed, but he did not transform baseball like Robinson did.

As for Rivera, 42 is already retired, though he (and anyone who wore the number at the time it was retired) can still use it. The Yankees can attach Rivera’s name to the number with Robinson’s and I don’t think anyone would be upset. And it’s unlikely that the Red Sox would choose to memorialize Mo Vaughn.

There is the matter of drawing the line. The Yankees, of course, have the biggest problem; if they retire Derek Jeter’s #2 (which is likely when he retires), the only single-digit number left is 6. Do they unretire numbers then? (#1 – Billy Martin – seems the first candidate).

5

You realize of course that 6 will never be worn again either in all likelihood. Torre has that one. They won’t unretire a number until the Steinbrenner family no longer owns the team. Then you might be right about #1, but I suspect they would never unretire a number.
I think you are correct about both Clemente and Vaughn.

Jim

6

#42 should remain unique. Clemente was great, but Robinson was unique. Make it a single act, and leave it at that.

7

Oh god, tell her never to come to Pittsburgh.

8

Robinson was unique, but how important was he to baseball? No offenses intended but baseball isn’t really an African-American sport (there are a lot of blacks in baseball, but most are not African-American, MLB is about 10% African-American.) How important was his breaking the color barrier? Pretty damn important, but I’m not sure it’s instantly more than what Ruth did, Ruth’s monster home runs more or less BUILT baseball, if you want to talk about someone who is unique or pioneering.

And in raw home-run hitting power no one has ever hit them as well as Ruth. Just about the only reason any of Ruth’s records have ever been broken is baseball has brought the outfield in, extended the season to 162 games, lowered the pitching mound, and seen the introduction of steroids. And still based on “ratio” numbers Ruth is still a good degree better than even the best we have today.

9

Part of the reason that Robinson is so special is that what he did transcended baseball. Is that concept so difficult to grasp?

10

Same can be said for Clemente. He inspired players across latin American. Jackie Robinson wasn’t the first truly great black baseball player. Guys like Satchel Page and Josh Gibson were respected even outside the Negro Leagues before Robinson ever put on cleats. Clemente was the first latino to ever be inducted into the Hall of Fame, and he was considered a first-rate humanitarian who worked tirelessly to transform and improve his native home. To a lot of Puerto Ricans Clemente was their Jackie Robinson.

But in all honesty, that’s what stuff like the Presidential Medal of Freedom is for, the Nobel Prize, et cetera. I personally think the retiring of a number should be kept to what it traditionally was, a team honoring one of their players for their achievements.

Robinson was inspiring, but lets not forget that all we’re really talking about is a guy waving a stick at a ball, and getting paid for it.

11

I have no axe to grind against Clemente. I don’t even know very much about him.

But Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in America’s national pastime in an era where the color line was still one of the dominant factors on the American social, cultural, and political landscape. The divide between black and white was, and in different ways still is, a defining characteristic of the American experience, and this was true both inside and outside of baseball. Robinson was, in many ways, a symbol, and remains one today. A symbol that transcends his particular feats on the baseball diamond.

You point out that Clemente wasn’t the first Latino to play in the Majors. As i said, i don’t know much about him, but was he subjected to the same level of ridicule and abuse and prejudice as Robinson was, not only by fans, but in many cases by players and other people within the world of baseball? Robinson also actively involved himself in politics after baseball, and was on the Board of the NAACP.

Never suggested otherwise. Those guys would probably have succeeded admirably, had they been allowed to play in the Majors. Not sure, though, how this devalues or negates Robinson’s influence, as you seem to be suggesting.

I’m sure you’re right. But he wasn’t America’s Jackie Robinson, and i’m sure that, despite baseball’s internationalism, there’s a certain amount of American nationalism involved in Robinson’s current status within the sport.

Sure. I guess that’s why Robinson also got a Presidential Medal of Freedom, a Congressional Gold Medal, and an NAACP Singarn Medal.

If you think that Robinson’s career involved nothing more than playing the game, i fear you’re missing a whole lot. The very fact that Robinson’s presence got such attention at the time (and after), and elicited such hope and support among the black community, and such hatred and opposition among some members of the white community, suggests that, while baseball may be just a sport, the national consequences of what happens in the Major Leagues cannot always be measured in a box score.

12

The only thing I question here is what the hell Sharon Robinson has to do with the decision.

Retire the number, or don’t. We got lots of numbers, even up to a jillion. Each baseball player can have his own, we’ll never run out, who cares. Sharon’s father did wonderful things in baseball, which led the way for American society to follow suit, but who is she to call the shots for MLB?

13

You make good points, mhendo. For Robinson being honored in this manner, I still don’t see why he should be the ONLY person honored in this manner. And just because what Robinson did transcends baseball doesn’t mean he is especially deserving of a baseball recognition that is reserved solely for himself. Several people have “transcended” baseball, and Clemente is one of them.

Unless you think breaking the walls of segregation is an event in American history so singular that we can never honor anyone in the same way that we honor those who did that. We can never have another holiday named after someone, because that honor is reserved to MLK, for example.

Doesn’t make sense to me.

14

MLB isn’t a purely American association, so this is a moot point.

15

I never made any such argument, and nor would i.

Personally, i don’t care if they do the same thing for Clemente. Doesn’t worry me a bit. I don’t care enough about the issue of retiring numbers to spend more than a few seconds caring about it either way.

I was simply reacting to what seemed to me to be your rather dismissive tone regarding Robinson. Your suggestion that he wasn’t that important to baseball, because African Americans still only make up a relatively small percentage of players. Your suggestion that we should equate Robinson’s accomplishments with Babe Ruth’s ability to hit a ball. Your observation that Robinson wasn’t the first great black player, as if that somehow negates his accomplishments.

You seem unable to grasp the fact that Robinson’s importance, both to baseball and to America, is qualitatively different from any other player. It something that can’t be evaluated by simply looking at his stats, or comparing his hitting power to Babe Ruth’s, or citing the percentage of African Americans in the league. While you may not feel he’s deserving of the special attention, millions of Americans feel differently, and that fact, if nothing else, justifies the honor that has been given to him, because Major League baseball is nothing is not responsive to public opinion.

And, while it may not be a “purely American association,” the fact is that the public to which MLB is largely oriented is the American public. And the history of which MLB is a part is largely American history. That’s why Robinson is so important to the League, and to Americans who recognize the significance of his achievement, and his role as a historical symbol of America’s struggle with race relations.

If you don’t agree with me, i’m probably never going to be able to convince you. I have no bone to pick with Clemente, and i’ve stated my case about Robinson. What MLB does with their numbers is completely unimportant to me.

16

I’m inclined (not strongly) to agree with Sharon Robinson, but I think she should have kept quiet about it. It’d be no insult to her if Clemente’s number was retired, and complaining makes her look bad. There shouldn’t be any bitterness in this discussion.

17

I think Robinson was unique. It took a very special person to break the color barrier, one of many huge steps on the long road to racial equality. It’s hard to conceive of what someone else could to to warrant the same treatment.

Clemente was a great player and a great man, there is no doubt about it. He died in his ongoing humanitarian efforts and for that he should always be remembered with respect. His talents as a player were enormous. But there are other players that get involved with humanitarian causes and there are other players who will get 3,000 hits and there will be others that do both. But there was only one Jackie Robinson.

As a Yankee fan, I think George has retired too many numbers. I’d like to make a rule that only Hall of Famers can have numbers retired. This would free up #1 Billy Martin, #9 Roger Maris, #15 Thurman Munson, #23 Don Mattingly, and #49 Ron Guidry.

18

Munson was the first Captain since the Iron Horse and died tragically ending any hope of the HOF. Please at least remove him from your list.

The others, well Donny & Guidry are beloved Yankee Captains but I get your point. But if we go down this road, Gator is a career Yank and now our pitching Coach. His 25-3 Season is as famous to Yankee fans as Reggie’s 3 in a row vs. the Dodgers but Reggie was only a 5 year Yank. Is he more deserving that Gator?
(Please note I have no defense for the Martin & Maris retirements, they are the weakest, I am OK with them, but no defense)

As to Jackie vs Clemente. Jackie helped change the Country not just the game. Clemente was a wonderful person and a great baseball player, heck he was a better player than Jackie, but so were about a 100 other players. Jackie was special. Jackie did more for Civil rights than any sports figure in US history. He made the game better by blazing the trail for the even greater Black athletes that followed him. Mays, Aaron and every dark skinned Latino ballplayer also.
The Honor for Jackie was right and appropriate.

BTW: Ruth was honored throughout baseball by all 16 teams having a Babe Ruth day way back when. The retirement of his number thoughout baseball is not needed. All true Baseball Fans know he wore 3. He was bigger than the game and credited with saving it. That should be enough.

Jim

19

No, he wasn’t. Clemente was a great player, but Robinson was even better.

Robinson only played ten years so his total accomplishments don’t seem as impressive, but that’s because he didn’t get to play in the major leagues until he was 28, due to the color of his skin; he otherwise would have been in the majors at least by 1945, possibly 1944. The war interfered with his career as well.

But pound for pound, he was better than Clemente. That is no insult to Clemente; it’s sort of like saying “McCovey was great, but Gehrig was better.” Robinson was during his prime one of the three best players in the world, along with Stan Musial and Ted Williams, and one of the two when Williams was in Korea.

Robinson got on base a lot more; he was the greatest baserunner of his time; he played somewhat more critical defensive positions and played them extremely well. He was sort of like Roberto Alomar, Super Sized, with a lot more drive and competitiveness.

As to the issue of retirning numbers, I would agree that Clemente does not have the case Robinson does. In terms of his impact on baseball as a Latino player, Clemente’s case isn’t even remotely comparable; he is closer to Hideo Nomo than he is to Jackie Robinson.

20

I don’t agree with the retirement of Robinson’s number. That said, I can understand the reasons it was done, and I can think of no other player to whom those reasons (or equally compelling reasons) might apply.