Baseball Thread June 2008

The Game Room
121

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Hey Dodger fans, I want to know what you think of Torre so far?

Do you like the job he is doing?

Is he part of the reason the Dodgers are below .500 in an easy division?

Did the Dodgers sustain any major injuries?

How do you rate the various parts of Torre game?

  1. Handling the Bullpen
  2. Setting the line-up
  3. Choosing when to pinch hit
  4. Handling base runners
  5. Setting the defense
  6. Handling young players vs. Vets
  7. Media & Fan relations
  8. Dealing with your crazy and overbearing owner

Wait, strike the last one, that is no longer part of his job description.

Please help this AL fan out.
[/QUOTE]
I’m probably not enough of an expert to answer all of these questions, but I’m sure silenus will wander through shortly.

I will say that I don’t believe he’s responsible for the miserable nature of the season right now. He can’t get on the field and hit for them. And on the rare occasion when the team does remember how to hit, our pitching falls apart. We have all kinds of talent on the field, but no one who can put it together when it counts. That’s not entirely his fault.

I haven’t heard much noise this year about the kids versus the old guys, so I’m assuming he’s handling that well. I wonder, though, given how public some of the feuding was last year, if that problem would have gone away even with someone else at the helm.

122

Yankees ace Chien-Ming Wang will be on crutches and wear a boot for at least six weeks after injuring his right foot running the bases, the latest blow to New York’s banged-up pitching staff.

This is really bad news. The Yanks have been scoring and extra 2 runs per game since A-Rod & Posada returned. The pitching staff was looking OK and not this. I hope their is some good news on Hughes soon. I suspect Dan Giese might get a chance to start a game or two. He is a 31 year old career minor leaguer that has been in the bullpen for a while as the long man. The Yanks were using him as a starter in Scranton before he was called up.

123

Newsday is saying this might be a season-ending injury (to Wang).

124

Besides Sabathia are the Yankees looking at any other pitchers? We’re getting close to firesale time.

125

I would just like to compliment the Wilpons for lowering themselves to George “The Boss” Steinbrenner’s level in manager handling. That was a truly classless display and it was done in such a disorganized fashion that it embarrassed the entire Met organization. (I hear that is now considered an oxymoron).

[QUOTE=dalej42]
Besides Sabathia are the Yankees looking at any other pitchers? We’re getting close to firesale time.
[/QUOTE]

Wait, what team? D-Backs right? Who would be offered?

126

Anyone got some spare coaches? It was handled terribly, but I’m happy it was done. While it is certainly difficult to discern whether a manager is to blame for failure, there are way more potential managers than positions. The Mets have every reason to be picky, and Willie hasn’t really done anything to prove he is one of the better ones.

127

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Wait, what team? D-Backs right? Who would be offered?
[/QUOTE]

I meant teams out of contention will be starting to move players. I can’t see the D-backs trading any pitchers, although I wouldn’t cry if Randy Johnson left.

128

[QUOTE=dalej42]
Besides Sabathia are the Yankees looking at any other pitchers? We’re getting close to firesale time.
[/QUOTE]

There’s scuttlebutt that the Jays are looking to move AJ Burnett. There’s two problems with this:

  1. Who the hell would want a guy with a 4.90 ERA who’s going to opt out at season’s end?

  2. Even if the Yankees wanted him it’s unlikely they would give the Blue Jays something worth two first-round draft picks - which is what Toronto gets if Burnett opts out and leaves. If Burnett’s trade return isn’t at least worth that, there’s very little sense in trading him.

129

[QUOTE=Hawkeyeop]
Anyone got some spare coaches? It was handled terribly, but I’m happy it was done. While it is certainly difficult to discern whether a manager is to blame for failure, there are way more potential managers than positions. The Mets have every reason to be picky, and Willie hasn’t really done anything to prove he is one of the better ones.
[/QUOTE]

Willie probably should have been replaced in the off-season. Not many would have faulted the Mets. Right after they got swept by the Padres and they were what 5 games under would have been a good time.

I have no complaints about Willie being fired, just that the Wilpons screwed the pooch on the timing and look bad.

130

The firing was absolutely terrible timing. If they were planning to fire Willie (and the problems with the team is more the players than the manager), then it should have been done after the Padres series. The team has actually been showing some signs of life the past few games.

But the story switched from firing Willie to how the firing was handled. It was truly a classless move – Minyana easily could have waited until morning. If he thought it would have made things easier by doing it in the middle of the night, then it’s the worst baseball decision he’s ever made (though it is possible the Wilpons ordered him to do it this way).

But the problem with the Mets this year has little to do with Willie. The players they depended on – Reyes, Wright, and Heilman – have not come through. Wagner chose the wrong time to fall apart (he was superb up until the blown saves, and will probably be fine the rest of the year), and the injuries to Ryan Church and Angel Pagan have hurt the offense (It was assumed by everyone that Alou’s playing time would be limited). But the starting pitching has been solid – even Pelfrey is pitching well this money, and Perez is always going to be a erratic. The bullpen has been hurting, mostly because Heilman has been undependable, but the problem is primarily the offense.

But this was a public relations disaster.

131

So there it is. I don’t really know how to feel about this. On the one hand, a change was inevitable and I don’t really consider Willie Randolph to be a particularly good manager. On the other, the move is a band-aid, and if the Mets win four in a row under Manuel I think Minaya will be inclined to pronounce the whole mess fixed and move on, which I think would be a terrible mistake.

[QUOTE=RealityChuck]
The firing was absolutely terrible timing. If they were planning to fire Willie (and the problems with the team is more the players than the manager), then it should have been done after the Padres series. The team has actually been showing some signs of life the past few games.

[/quote]

Well, OK, but competent ownership probably shouldn’t be making a decision either way on the basis of a few games. If the team had come to feel that Randolph was the wrong manager for this team after the Padres series, and if that feeling was based on rational evidence, then a couple of good games probably oughtn’t to make a difference.

Eh. I don’t know. Everyone always says this when a manager is on the hot seat. But honestly: talent-wise, this team should not be under .500. Yes, a number of players haven’t come through to the extent that they were expected to come through. At some point, though, you have to either: (1) decide that a manager has no influence whatsoever on player performance, in which case you should hire Bobo the Dancing Chimp to fill in your lineup cards and forget about the whole thing; or (2) say that to the extent that it is possible for a manager to get the most out of his players, Willie Randolph has failed in New York.

When a team with objectively poor talent wins, buoyed by unexpectedly good performances by those objectively weaker players, we are quick to credit the Jack McKeon or Joe Girardi involved. It follows that when a team with objectively more talent performs poorly, dragged down by unexpectedly bad performances, some of the blame for that has to fall on the manager. So let it be with Willie.

Except Jose Reyes’ production has been right in line with his numbers from 2005 and 2006. Wright has slipped a bit but is still slugging close to .500. Nobody saw Heilman coming, but nobody saw Pelfrey coming either.

132

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Yankees ace Chien-Ming Wang will be on crutches and wear a boot for at least six weeks after injuring his right foot running the bases, the latest blow to New York’s banged-up pitching staff.
[/QUOTE]
Serious question here:

When Hank Steinbrenner says (about the NL not having a DH):

can anyone defend him as being anything other than whiny and completely ridiculous? Is his point even the least bit valid? Is it unrealistic to expect a pitcher to be able to do something as esoteric and fraught with danger as… running?

133

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
SoWhen a team with objectively poor talent wins, buoyed by unexpectedly good performances by those objectively weaker players, we are quick to credit the Jack McKeon or Joe Girardi involved. It follows that when a team with objectively more talent performs poorly, dragged down by unexpectedly bad performances, some of the blame for that has to fall on the manager. So let it be with Willie.
[/QUOTE]

Do the Mets have that much talent, though?

They’ve got three huge talents in Wright, Reyes and Beltran. Reyes is hitting just as well as he did last year, as is Beltran. Wright is down from 2007 but still excellent. Ryan Church is hitting to the extent of his ability. Carlos Delgado has been a great hitter, but he’s old and was clearly over the hill last season. Who else in the lineup is a superior talent playing below their ability?

What about the pitching staff? Where’s the greatness there, aside from Santana, who’s pitching very well?

That doesn’t look like a sensational team to me. Basically, the difference between the Mets and contention is that Aaron Heilman blew up and Oliver Perez has struggled with his command a bit, and that’s a pretty thin reason to fire your manager.

134

[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Serious question here:

When Hank Steinbrenner says (about the NL not having a DH):can anyone defend him as being anything other than whiny and completely ridiculous? Is his point even the least bit valid? Is it unrealistic to expect a pitcher to be able to do something as esoteric and fraught with danger as… running?
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not, he his a complete blowhard. The local press loves Hank. For 3 decades George gave the local sports writers an easy time with insanity and MacArthuresc statements. Now Hank is different, but just as entertaining with his own brand of making an ass of himself.

Here is the kicker. If Wang actually knew how to bunt, he would have moved runners to 2nd and 3rd instead of ending up on first. His injury is directly tied to the fact that most AL pitchers cannot handle a bat at all.

135

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Do the Mets have that much talent, though?

They’ve got three huge talents in Wright, Reyes and Beltran. Reyes is hitting just as well as he did last year, as is Beltran. Wright is down from 2007 but still excellent. Ryan Church is hitting to the extent of his ability. Carlos Delgado has been a great hitter, but he’s old and was clearly over the hill last season. Who else in the lineup is a superior talent playing below their ability?

What about the pitching staff? Where’s the greatness there, aside from Santana, who’s pitching very well?

That doesn’t look like a sensational team to me. Basically, the difference between the Mets and contention is that Aaron Heilman blew up and Oliver Perez has struggled with his command a bit, and that’s a pretty thin reason to fire your manager.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, I think this is more about Minaya than Willie. But the team is scuffling and the easiest (note, easiest, not best) fix is to fire the manager and hope you get lucky.

136

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Hey Dodger fans, I want to know what you think of Torre so far?

Do you like the job he is doing?

Is he part of the reason the Dodgers are below .500 in an easy division?

Did the Dodgers sustain any major injuries?

How do you rate the various parts of Torre game?

  1. Handling the Bullpen
  2. Setting the line-up
  3. Choosing when to pinch hit
  4. Handling base runners
  5. Setting the defense
  6. Handling young players vs. Vets
  7. Media & Fan relations
  8. Dealing with your crazy and overbearing owner

Wait, strike the last one, that is no longer part of his job description.

Please help this AL fan out.
[/QUOTE]

I think Torre is doing a fine job. It’s everything else that’s falling apart. Injuries have crippled the Dodgers this year. Losing Nomar and LaRoche before the season even started, then losing Furcal just killed us. The younger players are stepping up, but without Furcal, everything is just so lifeless. Then we lose Jones, who was an overpaid waste of space anyway, but it just adds to the avalanche.

I do like the way Torre is playing around with the lineup, although I suppose it’s out of necessity rather than strategy. But playing Martin at third on his “off” days is genius. We have a lot of young talent, and that needs to be allowed to develop. Kershaw is going to be amazing, if Torre can keep him to limited innings and let him develop. DeWitt is also going to be a key player in the future. If the Front Office would just stop buying useless center fielders, and spend some money on a power-hitter or two, we’d be a lot better off.

Oh, well. As long as we’re ahead of San Francisco and San Diego, I’m noy miserable.

137

It’s also worth noting Andruw Jones was a complete washout, something Torre obviously could not control.

It looks like Jones might be cooked. How strange.

138

[QUOTE=RickJay]
It’s also worth noting Andruw Jones was a complete washout, something Torre obviously could not control.

[/QUOTE]

Would he get no credit if Jones had a miraculous resurgence?

139

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Do the Mets have that much talent, though?

They’ve got three huge talents in Wright, Reyes and Beltran. Reyes is hitting just as well as he did last year, as is Beltran. Wright is down from 2007 but still excellent. Ryan Church is hitting to the extent of his ability. Carlos Delgado has been a great hitter, but he’s old and was clearly over the hill last season. Who else in the lineup is a superior talent playing below their ability?
[/quote]

That is like saying other than Utley, Howard, and Rollins, there is not much talent in the Phillies lineup. 3 huge talents should be enough to make any lineup good. They had a good starting staff last year and added the best starter in baseball. They won 88 games last year, and all their stars are at or around their peak. Yes this team, as a whole, is playing significantly worse than they should be.

[QUOTE=RickJay]

What about the pitching staff? Where’s the greatness there, aside from Santana, who’s pitching very well?

[/QUOTE]

Who would you rather have? The Mets rotation or the Phillies? The Marlins? The Braves? The Cardinals? Sure they are flawed, but so is everyone else. They certainly should be better than average.

[QUOTE=RickJay]

That doesn’t look like a sensational team to me. Basically, the difference between the Mets and contention is that Aaron Heilman blew up and Oliver Perez has struggled with his command a bit, and that’s a pretty thin reason to fire your manager.

[/QUOTE]

Well, I think they underachieved last year too, and that Willie made some major mistakes down the stretch. Most notably playing Shawn Green after he was clearly done. Willie seems to have inherited from Torre the requirement to play “his guys”, even if those guys are done be useful hitters (or in some cases never were.

This isn’t to say it is all or even mostly Willie’s fault. If Marlon Anderson, Endy Chavez, and Fernado Tatis are your options, it hard to make a good decision.
Minaya is really good at the big things, but awful at the little things. You can’t give a 4 year contract to a player with knee problems, who’s only asset is speed. You can’t play a catcher if he can’t hit, and if you are relying on Alou as a corner outfielder, you need a damn good backup plan. Hell, I’m still annoyed about dealing Heath Bell to the Padres.

I’m not sure what you do with Omar. On the one hand it is better to be good at the big things than good at the little things. After all they are big things, and I don’t know that anyone else could have acquired Santana that cheaply. Still there comes a time when you have enough big things that you need to work on the smaller picture, and I don’t think he is the guy to do it. I’d I leave him in place through the season. He is good at acquiring talent, and there isn’t much left in the system not worth losing, so let’s see if he can pull off a trading deadline steal.

After all it is not about punishing people for failure, but rather getting people in place to succeed in the future. I don’t think this year is lost. There are only three teams ahead of the Mets in the wild card race. Three. One of them has been outscored this year by a decent margin. The other two are the Cardinals and the Marlins. Neither of those has anywhere near as much talent as the Mets.

I don’t think Willie the guy to get them there. He seems slow to adapt to change and uncreative. I don’t know that Manuel will be better, but he did have a winning record as a manager, and I think it is at least worth trying. I don’t think you are risking anything with the change.

140

[QUOTE=Hawkeyeop]
Would he get no credit if Jones had a miraculous resurgence?
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t give him a lot of credit for that, no, unless there was some specific information we had that Torre was indeed a big part of it. Jones’s track record is such that, at 31, he SHOULD be hitting reasonably well.