Where did this concept originate?
And, as a point of debate, how can it be true? If Supes ever got mad enough, he’d raze the Batcave from orbit with heat vision.
If Batman was prepared, he could hit Superman with a kryptonite-tipped ICBM.
Although I supported the “Bats wins if he’s prepared” theory in that statement, I don’t necessarily believe it’s true in all scenarios. After all, Superman can prepare, too.
Batman would have prepared for that.
I should have figured that… 
I assume that in this case, part of Batman’s preperation would involve leaving the Batcave. 
The statement assumes that Batman and his opponent are fighting in their accustomed styles.
Although he could, Superman does not cook his foes from orbit, nor does he whomp them at 0.5 C. It’s simply out of character for him. The Method Bats used in DKR (I haven’t read the sequel) to beat Superman, although non-canonical, is very much in character for the dark knight, as well as within his abilities.
Simply put, if an opponent has an expoloitable weakness, whether obvious or subtle (Kryptonite vs., say, the Joker’s need to kill Batman only on his own terms), and almost everyone does, and Batman was sufficent time to prepare, it is both within his character and his abilities to find and exploit the weakness to the fullest. Other characters, however powerful, lack the patience, intelligence, or sheer testicular fortitude Batman has to pull off some of his plans.
To answer your question simply, I’d say The Dark Knight Returns (whichever issue featured the Batman/Superman fight, #4?) and JLA #4 (Evil Alien: How is he doing this? He’s only one man! Superman: The most Dangerous man alive.) are the key issues for this theory, along with the JLA storyline in which Batman’s secret contingency plans for taking out the Justice League fall into the wrong hands, demonstrate this best. But I’m sure the theme has been hinted at throughout Justice League of America, World’s Finest, and the various Batman books.
This is why.
It’s true because it has to be for a guy with no superpowers to hold his own in the company of people like Superman, Martian Manhunter or Green Lantern.
Were you expecting a logical answer? Unfortunately, superhero comics don’t hold up well under logic.
End of debate.
Don’t get me wrong, I like superheroes and I like Batman but . . . well . . .
Another site I frequent has a board that is nothing but debates like this repeated endlessly. It all pretty pointless when you get right down to it, not because it isn’t fun - these sort of debates can be very fun - but because most of them seem to take all so very seriously and attempts to add a little levity are usually either ignored shouted down.
:dubious:
Batman is essentially a “normal” human who has achieved everything he has through training and supreme dedication.
I wonder why Batman, who has - at least in more recent years - always been dubious of super powers and the supernatural has never taken a good long look at himself and wondered why he can do things that, to be honest, no ordinary human can do, or probably would be able to even with all the training he’s put in?
Ventriloquism is a language? Native to what country I wonder?
From the article linked by SPOOFE
“His favorite styles are Aikido and Jeet Kune Do”
Oh no, don’t tell me that Batman has turned into one of those old frauds who pretends he once studied under Bruce Lee.
Ventrilquovania.
Actually, it’s native to the country right next to Ventrilquovania, where the people aren’t moving their lips.
I think Menocchio has correctly identified the main seeds of this line of thinking. I’ll only add a few others and spell out which comics creators are specifically responsible. I apologize for any gaps in the following tiimeline but I can only speak for comics I’ve read and creators whose work I’m familiar with.
1986: Frank Miller successfully retools Batman as a resourceful, calculating strategist during the initial Dark Knight Returns.
1986: Possibly as a result of Frank Miller’s series, Alan Moore has a darker, more calculating Batman confront Swamp Thing in the double-sized Saga Of The Swamp Thing #53. Swamp Thing has Gotham City under siege. Batman, in response to this, adds two new weapons to his considerable arsenal: an armored, tank-style Batmobile (VERY similar to the one in DKR)that can cut through the undergrowth Swamp Thing has forced all over the city and a defoliant spray canister with a pressurized hose hose that is worn like a flamethrower. Once Batman engages Swamp Thing, he seemingly has him on the ropes, dousing him repeatedly with the plant poison… until Swamp Thing grows a half-a-dozen bodies simultaneously and proceeds to kick the crap out of Batman. The kicker is that Batman’s defoliant spray tactic probably would have defeated Swamp Thing had Swampy not discovered how to grow and manipulate multiple bodies a few issues earlier.
1996-2000: In the newly launched JLA, Grant Morrison’s depiction of Batman takes Frank Miller’s version to Grant’s usual extremes, making him an uber-technologist, paranoid manipulator and Zen warrior-god. Batman was instrumental in defeating such varied foes as the new Starro the Conqueror and the White Martians. Another new character, Prometheus – concieved as Batman’s ideological opposite – trounces the JLA, including Batman, in his first appearance. In another notable instance, Batman almost defeats a rampaging Shaggy Man via hypnosis. And Batman’s rematch with Prometheus is a resounding one-sided defeat where Batman, has learned from their previous encounter, turns the table on him and leaves Prometheus a mute cripple. Towards the end of his run, Morrison made Batman somewhat less unbeatable by playing down Batman’s overall role, but by then, the damage had been done.
1998-2001: Mark Waid’s follow-up treatment of Batman during his run on JLA cemented one aspect of Batman’s view, that of the undefeatable strategist, in a couple of storylines – one directly, (the “Babel” issues ) and one indirectly (The two parter where Batman, who’s about to solve the mystery of the disappearing JLA members, disappears himself mid-explanation at the end of part one.) The “Babel” stories are interesting because they also underscore Waid’s disdain for the amorality of Batman’s tactics since, ultimately and rightly, Batman can’t be trusted.
Waid also reinforced this view of Batman in KINGDOM COME and KINGDOM, by having three generations of superheroes defer to his leadership with a lot less bravdo and overt action than Superman’s camp.
The BIGGEST contributer of this POV regarding Batman’s prowress is the slavish fanboy acceptance of it by Bat-fans, fueled via Wizard Magazine and hundreds of internet arguments.
I can attest to my contributions to a couple DOZEN threads on various comics-related message boards and fan fiction websites over a two year period, championing Batman as a master planner who can defeat anybody with access to the right equipment, personal information and time to prepare.
In a recent comic book, Batman (assisted by Catwoman) defeated Superman whose mind was being controlled by Poison Ivy. During his attack Batman used kryptonite weapons to weaken Superman. After the attack was over, it was revealed that Batman had received the kryptonite from Superman himself. Superman had wanted to make sure that if ever went bad, someone would be able to stop him and Batman was the one he trusted most.
So, you’re saying Batman could defeat me by whipping up a mess o’ wood-smoked pulled-pork barbecue?
That, or just skipping to step three and causing your artery- blocked heart attack! Depends whether or not Miller is writing it.
Whether Batman being the uber nasty plotter that stands toe to toe with mega-powerful superheroes is plausible or not, it definately makes for a great show. I mean, the JLA where Batman took out the White Martians was classic and almost creepy. And his amorality and “outsider” status deepen the sorts of conflicts we see among heroes. Especially since none of us have superpowers, Batman is the crafty human we root for: the guy who proves that even normal human beings can make a huge difference and stand toe to toe with the gods… provided that you’re a billionaire playboy, of course.
And heck, it’s not THAT implausible. Most heroes and villians are rank morons.
Probably it’s more accurate to say that Batman wins if he’s “prepared,” and Superman decides to take a fall. I think this is pretty clearly depicted in Dark Knight Returns, where Superman calls Batman out by lasering a challenge onto the ground beside him with heat vision. Obviously if Superman had seriously intended to take Batman down, he could have just welded the pins in his knees together right then. Instead he goes to the trouble of staging a big fight in front of government troops, making sure Batman has every opportunity to make his escape.
The recent donnybrook in Batman is another case in point. Poison Ivy manages to ensnare Superman by lacing her mind-control lipstick with synthetic kryptonite, and orders him to kill Batman. Even Batman himself acknowledges that Superman could easily pound him into the ground in a fraction of a second–if he weren’t holding himself back. Again, Superman is consciously limiting himself, fighting against the mind control to allow Batman to restrain him.
Yes, Batman did manage to defeat several White Martians at once, but this is like saying he managed to defeat several of the aliens from Signs. Sadly, Martians are completely depowered in the presence of fire, which does tend to raise the question of why the hell they keep trying to take over a planet with an oxygenated atmosphere. Generally your more competent evil aliens don’t try to conquer places where their powers can be turned off by rubbing two sticks together. Hey, why haven’t the Martians tried to take over Atlantis, anyway? Not to give them ideas or anything, but it’s been a while since any brushfires menaced the Great Barrier Reef.
Martians are rock stupid.