I’ve actually never thought Cap was any great shakes as a tactician. His value as a leader is that he inspires confidence in his subordinates, makes them want to do better, and listens to them.
Tony Stark is easily better than Cap at coming up withclever plans and figuring out who should do what. But he pisses everybody off in the process. His teammates tolerate him and frequently demand that he prove he’s right. If Cap gives you an order, the other Avengers are going to follow it because they trust him to put the public weal over all else and the safety of his teammates over his own. If they don’t understand the order, they think, “I’ll want an explanation later, but it’s Cap, so my thought process is probably flawed in some subtle way.”
Khan from Star Trek might be as strong as or even stronger than Cap – Khan isn’t really peak human, he’s genetically enhanced. But Cap would still kick his ass.
Can Cap really be considered peak human? He was given a super solider serum. That is a scientific based origin. Batman, however, is peak human. Paul Atreides is peak human, until the agony, but from so far into the future he would seem superpowered to most of us.
I never watched the A Team but I’m sure you’re right that he only lost one fight out of hundreds in that show. But he’s only dealing with other norms. Bats lives in a world populated by mutants, cyborgs, and demigods, and still generally wins. If both are fighting bare-handed, I bet on Batman, but it’s a good fight. If both have their typical gear, B.A. is toast
(That is not to praise the uber-Bat. I liked Batman more when he was outclassed in any direct physical confrontation with any JLAer other than Green Arrow, but was still often the MVP because he was a great detective and tactician.)
That is an earlier story than the one I remember reading, so it wins for their first encounter. Mine was a flashback story from the 70s I think, so may have been a retcon.
Cap wasn’t originally a great tactician, it was his experiences in WW II, and then leading the Avengers, that made him one.
This may have changed, in fact, I know it has a couple of times and I don’t know what the current canon is, but the usual explanation is that the serum took Cap to the absolute peak of his potential. It didn’t take him beyond that into the superhuman levels.
Khan OTOH, is definitely enhanced beyond human norms. Or at least beyond the norms of the Star Trek universe. The same is true of Julian Bashir in DS9.
Not sure about Bourne. Been too long since I watched the movies.
The OP specified MCU Cap. Assuming he means Marvel Cinematic Universe and not Marvel Comics Universe, movie Cap is definitely enhanced. He held down a freaking helicopter in Civil War!
The thing with peak human attributes for guys like Cap (in the comics), it actually does make them superhuman. “Peak human” in comicspeak usually means peak human in all areas: strength, endurance, speed, reflexes, etc. It’s one thing to be “peak human” in one attribute, but it all of them? Olympic weightlifters aren’t the fastest runners, and the fastest runners aren’t the best gymnasts. If you’re the best in everything, that pretty much means you’re super-human, aren’t you?
About Batman, I haven’t read it, but there’s a book called “Becoming Batman”, where the author looked at all the training, diet, and education you’d need to be like Batman. I think he concluded mastering hundreds of forms of combat was BS – master 3 or 4 and familiarize yourself with a dozen others and that should be enough to make you a master fighter. I also think he said about 3 or 4 years max would be the shelf life of a Batman. Too much wear and tear on the body to keep it up much longer than that.
In some ways it’s a matter of perspective. From Thor’s point of view, tehre is no diference physically between Cap, the Black Widow, and Hawkeye. He respects their oxie and values their contributions, but on a muscular level, they might as well be May Parker.
From Spider-Man’s perspective, an unarmed Cap is a non-trivial danger but one he can almost certainly overcome. An unarmed Widow or Hawkeye are both trivial; his only problem in a fight is trying not to kill them accidentally. If they’ve pissed him off, they’re toast.
From J. Jonah Jameson’s point of view, an unarmed Cap, Widow, or Hawkeye are as dangerous in a fight as Spidey. Thor, of course, remains a god.
I think that Stark might be better at coming up with individual plans than Rogers is, but he’s not as good with a team. A Stark plan will look something like “Hulk is the most powerful of us, so let’s throw Banner at them”. A Rogers plan will likewise involve throwing Banner at the hardest targets, but will also include Hawkeye running recon and picking off targets of opportunity from a high sniper roost, himself and Romanov on the ground coordinating civilian evacuation efforts, Thor taking out the second-hardest target and redirecting the hardest to either Banner or Banner and himself working together, and so on. He knows how to use all of the resources he has available, even the ones that are comparably weak.
How would you rank these super-humans as if they were entered in a mixed martial arts tournament?
Jason Bourne
Batman
James Bond
Rocky Balboa
James t. Kirk…ripped shirt (NOT Chris Pine;))
MCU Captain America
Star Trek: Into Darkness KHAN
Watchmen Ozymandias
DUNE’s Paul Atreides
Rambo
Snake Plissken
Buck Rogers
The Punisher
B.A. Barrakus (A. Team)
Dutch Schaeffer (Predator)
Bruce Lee in “Way of the Dragon”[/QUOTE]
As others have said, Marv from Sin City would be a good addition. However he got the crap kicked out of him by Kevin, who had great reflexes. Ozymandius also has amazing reflexes (so does Captain America), so Marv wouldn’t make the cut.
I’m assuming the punisher, batman, rambo, Dutch, etc. are the equivalent of nite own or rorschach in the watchmen universe. Ozymandius handled those kinds of fighters pretty effortlessly.
James Bond is not a fighter. He’d be near the bottom. James Bond is supposedly ex-SAS, so he is someone who fights with weapons, not fists. Kirk too. They’d both be beaten to death within minutes. Jason Bourne & Rocky wouldn’t last long either, but Bourne would last a little longer.
Near the top I would say it would be a battle of Captain America (who is superhuman) vs. Ozymandius.
I don’t know enough about Bruce Lee, BA Barrakus, Buck Rogers, Snake, Dune, Kahn.
Captain America & Ozymandius would be near the top. Probably those 2 would be the last ones standing.
But other than that we’re not disagreeing. I just see Cap’s biggest asset as a leader the fact that he’s likeable rather than charming, isn’t inclined to be a glory hog, and doesn’t try to pull devious shit on his own teem mates. Recalcitrants like Hawkeye and Hulk will follow him because he’s way more trustworthy than Stark.
Ifeel I should say soething else dismissive about Hulk but I need another donut first,
Thor is certainly the most capable of the Avengers (at least, as of the first movie: I’m not sure how Vision or Scarlet Witch stack up to him). Hulk is more powerful, but he can’t do much more with that power than just punch really hard. He’s not nearly as versatile or subtle as Thor.
In any event, though, justified or not Stark certainly seems to hold Hulk’s abilities in greater esteem than Thor’s, and so Hulk is going to be the centerpiece of any of Stark’s plans.
Supposedly there was a scene planned for AGE OF ULTRON – but which may or may not someday pop up in a later movie, which is why I’m spoilering it:
[spoiler]The idea was, they’d establish that Ultron was more confident about fighting all of the Avengers other than Hulk than about fighting the Hulk solo, because, hey, adamantium body, y’know? Throw whatever you want at him, he can take it and dish it back out – unless it’s the Hulk, in which case Ultron won’t even show up for the fight; he can handle anything but the Hulk, and he knows it.
So the big fight scene was supposed to be everyone but the Hulk showing up, and Ultron deciding to make a stand – and we soon learn that, as good as Robert Downey Jr is in the armor, he ain’t got nothing on Mark Ruffalo.[/spoiler]
