[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
They don’t deserve to be summarily executed for it.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus where did I say that she DESERVED to be put out the airlock? I even said it wasn’t the best solution. I’m merely saying that I can see a non-evil justification from Tory’s perspective of why it had to be done.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Yes, people. One of the driving themes of BSG is the blurry line between man and machine. The cylons have emotions, are biological in nature, etc etc
[/QUOTE]
And people tend not to care about that when the machines have committed genocide on the human race. This often makes people want to do things like hit them in the head with wrenches when they come upon them suddenly.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Yes, people.
[/QUOTE]
It is difficult to indicate that one is not being sarcastic or ugly in a post, save to say, “I’m not being ugly or sarcastic, I’m really interested in your opinion”.
That being said, have you found anything to cause you to be sympathetic towards some or all of the Cylons?
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Jesus where did I say that she DESERVED to be put out the airlock? I even said it wasn’t the best solution. I’m merely saying that I can see a non-evil justification from Tory’s perspective of why it had to be done.
[/QUOTE]
I think airlocking Cally was evil. You don’t. I don’t see how it’s justifiable if Cally didn’t remotely deserve it. It wasn’t really self-defense, it wasn’t necessary, and it was coldly, calculatingly done. That’s the hallmark of evil to me. Tory is an old school Cylon IMO. YMMV.
Yes, I do feel sympathetic toward some of the Cylons. I think that some of them changed their minds and realized killing the humans was wrong.
I guess I just don’t see the story as quite so black and white as a lot of the people in this thread do. shrug
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I think airlocking Cally was evil. You don’t. I don’t see how it’s justifiable if Cally didn’t remotely deserve it. It wasn’t really self-defense, it wasn’t necessary, and it was coldly, calculatingly done. That’s the hallmark of evil to me. Tory is an old school Cylon IMO. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]
Whatever! Jesus, let it go! You are aware, aren’t you, that this is a television show, and not real?
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Yes, I do feel sympathetic toward some of the Cylons. I think that some of them changed their minds and realized killing the humans was wrong.
[/quote]
Tory is not one of those Cylons, though. And my sympathy towards most of them is limited considering that there are only 40,000 humans (who don’t reincarnate) left as a result of Cylon policy. Dissent on this subject amongst the Cylons is very recent. I can totally understand why the vast majority of humans want to destroy them whenever they encounter them.
I don’t think people see the story as black and white. They just think Tory is evil. Please don’t universalize that to apply to our views of the entire story.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Whatever! Jesus, let it go! You are aware, aren’t you, that this is a television show, and not real?
[/QUOTE]
You’re the one who is freaking out, not me, and now… making it personal for some inexplicable reason. What do you care if I think Tory is evil? Stop yelling and let it go if it bothers you so much.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
I guess I just don’t see the story as quite so black and white as a lot of the people in this thread do.
[/QUOTE]
I’m curious about examples. Torture on the Pegasus comes to mind. I’ve viewed them as Bad Guys since Six killed the baby before Caprica was nuked.
Cally needed to be naked when she was spaced. Other than that, I have no complaints. 
Looking back on the last few episodes where the Final Four’s Toasterhood was revealed, each of them seem to have different reactions to this new information;
Tigh; No, I CAN’T be a frakkin’ toaster, godsdammit!, I don’t even LIKE toast! lalalalalala I’m not listening, nope, I’m a human, a regular human, not a toaster!
Blanders; [Futurama Neutral planet alien voice]hmmm, so I’m a toaster, that’s mundane, oh well, back to my bland old life, i’ll take my toast dry, thanks[/FNPAV]
Chief; Okay, so, I’m a Toaster, okay, I’d like an English Muffin with a Thorazine spread for Cally, then, that doesn’t make me a bad person, does it?
Tory; Hmm, seems I’m a Toaster, I guess that explains why I love grilled bread products so much, hey there, sexy man, wanna’ kill all humans?
It seems Tory has adjusted to her Toasterhood more quickly than the other F4, and she seems to be coming down more on the side of the “Kill All Humans” models
[QUOTE=MacTech]
Looking back on the last few episodes where the Final Four’s Toasterhood was revealed, each of them seem to have different reactions to this new information;
[/quote]
Interesting. My take in their reactions is along the spectrum of denial and acceptance:
Tigh: I don’t wanna be a Cylon! I’m still human in my heart. This changes nothing! And I will not harm any humans. I still hate toasters. Grrrr.
Tyrol: First Boomer, now me… maybe if I try to act normal, it’ll be OK. But I’ve never really acted normal, so let me just freak out and see what happens.
Blanders: Well, it sucks that I’m a Cylon, but if Starbuck was one too, that wouldn’t be soooo bad, would it? Huh, Starbuck baby? You always said I could fuck like a machine, that’s why you married me…
Tory: It’s so freeing to be able to submit to my baser impulses now and rationalize it because I’m a machine and not a person. Let me fuck sexy but horrid people like Baltar and kill annoying wenches like Cally. This is fun!
These reactions seem pretty understandable, all of them. However, none of them is as distressed or horrified as Boomer was when she found out.
[QUOTE=silenus]
Cally needed to be naked when she was spaced. Other than that, I have no complaints. 
[/QUOTE]
Speaking of which, did it look like the actress had lost some weight?
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Speaking of which, did it look like the actress had lost some weight?
[/QUOTE]
I thought she looked the best she ever had this ep. It was weird, because she was supposed to be feeling so poorly, but she looked pretty good, IMO. I also did not expect to sympathize with her. I had hated that character but found myself feeling really bad for her. That’s why this show is so good.
Yeah, with the new hairstyle and different clothes I thought she was pretty cute this episode. Not so much in her last scene.
I’m a bit wary of stepping back into this, but okay, here goes.
I disagree with the notion that nobody would believe Cally about 4/5 of the Final Five. After all, nobody but the Doc and her husband actually knew she was on drugs, and the Doc seemed to be on her side, all in all. With the climate of fear and mistrust in the fleet, especially after New Caprica, a woman accusing her own husband, and claiming to have heard the “confession” of his toaster-nature first hand? Well, she might just be believed.
And while the Old Man would definitely go to bat for Tigh, I get the feeling that A) a lynch mob might very well form before he got things under control B) Tigh might actually crack under the strain. It’s looked like he’s come pretty damn close more than once. I could easily see him and Adama talking in Adama’s quarters and Adama slowly realizing that Tigh was holding something back, and probing until Tigh broke down and admitted everything. Remember too, that he’s still heartbroken and tremendously guilty about killing his wife for collaboration. And now, he’s not just a collaborator, he’s a freakin’ toaster himself. The mental/emotional strain would almost certainly be more than he coudl handle, and he’d be crying like a baby on Adama’s shoulder. (That is, if he didn’t flip and go Boomer on him)
What would happen once Adama found out Tigh was a toaster would be anybody’s guess, but imprisonment would be the least severe option. Adama, however, rather than assuming that Tigh was a special kind of Cylon who (evidently) actually is an individual who grew from a child into an adult, rather than being popped out of the Eazy Goo Oven, fully formed, like all the other Cylons… would probably assume that the Cylons had somehow caught and murdered Tigh and replaced him with a copy, maybe even during his time on New Caprica.
As for Cally herself, I do think that once she showed she was willing to murder her husband, and her child, and sacrifice herself, that she was simply too much of a liability to let her go on living. Chances were good that the next time, it’d be a bullet to the head instead of a wrench. I’m having a lot of trouble viewing Tory’s actions as evil rather than ruthlessly and necessarily brutal. As has been mentioned, one of the themes of the show is the dividing line between good and evil, and man (or super-hot woman) and machine. I’m curious as to whether the suggestion was that Tory was acting out of a very human sense of self preservation, or a very Cylon manner of cold, calculating lethality to advance certain goals. I suppose that her character will evolve over time, but out of all four of the Super Toasters, I’d put money on her being the one to betray the fleet.
However, in the context of self defense, remember that, after all, the four toasters haven’t done anything yet, and we don’t even know if Tigh’s fantasy about shooting the Old Man was his own daydreaming or foreshadowing. For all we know, the function of the Final Five is to spend all their time among humanity, as humans, and then return to the rest of the 12 in order to complete them, intellectually and by paving the way for the ascension of a Hybrid race. (total fanwank). So if they’re not ‘villains’ yet, it might make sense that they’d have more of a right to life then if they were evil.
And, consider, if they were created as babies, and aged naturally, and think they’re humans… isn’t it kinda, well, racist to say that they’re bad just because they’re Cylon?
please don’t hit me.
My point is, only, that the four toasters haven’t yet proven that their survival is wrong. As such, they seem to have as much right to life as anybody else. So if it comes down to them being shot or spaced by Cally/an angry mob, or eliminating Cally? Fuck… turn the key and slap that door release button, I’m in the mood for corpsicles.
Maybe, for me, my understanding and reaction to the scene is a bit different because, as soon as Tory stepped into the scene, I knew what she was going to do. And, I have to admit, seeing confirmation that she does indeed have Cylon level strength was just awesome. And, yeah… I’ve been rooting for Cally to get made dead, somehow, for quite some time now. Her voice is like nails on a chalkboard.
And, on another subject, was anybody else tremendously interested by the tidbit that Cavil let slip? The Cylons actually have a limited number of ‘spare’ bodies. I mean, it makes sense, and I should’ve flashed to it long ago, but that does mean that even with a Resurrection Ship right next to them, the Cylons still do have to worry about ‘dying’ too many times, lest they never manage to get a new body.
And, of course, ayieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Cylon civil war is GO!!!
[QUOTE=Frazzled]
Yeah, with the new hairstyle and different clothes I thought she was pretty cute this episode. Not so much in her last scene.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that whole “pallor of death” thing doesn’t look good on her.
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Yeah, pretty much.
[/QUOTE]
Too cool! If you have others, maybe start a thread in MPSIMS?
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Interesting. My take in their reactions is along the spectrum of denial and acceptance:
Tory: It’s so freeing to be able to submit to my baser impulses now and rationalize it because I’m a machine and not a person. Let me fuck sexy but horrid people like Baltar and kill annoying wenches like Cally. This is fun!
[/QUOTE]
I like that point. In fact, I could see that playing out in the big reveal of the Final Cylon.
Final Cylon: So, by the way, why did you kill Cally?
Tory: Well, I couldn’t help myself. You programmed me to, right?
Final Cylon: Er - no. Actually not.
Tory: Frak.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Speaking of which, did it look like the actress had lost some weight?
[/QUOTE]
I always thought Boomer was pretty well-padded based on her face, but then I saw one of those behind-the-scenes deals, so under her flight suit, she was a rail-thin model. Since then, we have been treated to several examples of Boomer-without-flightsuit. Cally also has a full face. Have we ever seen her underdressed?