Correct. Once you have converted the product and cannot give it back, you have an obligation to pay for it. You are constrained from walking out because the transaction has IYO taken too long, because if you do so you are stealing the product. Again, this is not a situation where payment was either impossible, or extraordinarily difficult or even offered. The customer just left because IHO the cashiers weren’t trying hard enough and he didn’t want to be inconvenienced. But once he has taken the product and can’t give it back, he’s SOL. He has to pay for it (absence impossiblity or other extraordinary circumstances I can’t think of at the moment).
You can elect to never go to that store again; you can elect to notify the management to how shitty their clerks are; you can jump to the head of the line and insist on paying immediately because you’re a heart surgeon on the way to a transplant. You can just drop sufficient money on the counter and go. You might even get away with leaving your contact information on a note promising to return (a promise to pay) with an explantion that you have to leave NOW. But what you cannot legally do, is elect to walk out and drive off. Because if you do, you are a thief.
But your personal opinion of thier ability to run their business means fuck-all. By this rationale, you could walk out and steal the gas if the clerk didn’t smile at you, or if they were out of Coke Zero, or if the TP in the restroom wasn’t 2-ply. You can consider whatever the hell you want to be “a business loss based on an inability to run your business.”
Which is all fine, so long as you concede that legally, walking away is theft – not “may be” but is – and therefore your personal opinion of their business practices is not going to keep you from being arrested as the thief you are.
I think you’d have a hard time convincing many people that thievery is right or correct under any system, be it moral, ethical or legal. You can act like this is some tiresome parsing of arid legalities having no real-world application, perhaps best done in Latin while wearing a periwig, but I think you know that it’s not.
Don’t steal stuff. Not even if you’re pissed off. It’s pretty simple.
Except, they have chosen to be “open for business” and have allowed me to begin an irreversible transaction (pumping gas into my car) without my having any ability to know that they did not intend to hold up their end of the transaction. I can guarantee that if I knew it would take 30 minutes for them to be able to take my money, I would happily go to a competitor.
Well…I’m not fully on one side of the fence…so I could be convinced to change my mind.
My position comes from personal experience and from concern.
Personal experience is that wayyyyy back when I used to teach college. While teaching I made some software for my students. I wasn’t consistent about it - it was more playing around/I found it fun etc. It was a big hit for my students when I did this. I was then approached by the administration asking if I wanted to make it ‘complete’ basically a lesson for the entire math class that could be used by the entire student body.
The amount of work would have been huge…I estimated between 1000-2000 hours. I was hesitant to volunteer this amount of time…hey I was young and had things I wanted to do! I counter offered that if they opened up a couple periods a day that would give a goodly amount of time to work on it ‘on the clock’. They balked at this.
The administration came back and said that if I did it, then it could be sold through the bookstore. I would then get the money for my time. The calculations showed that if 20% of the students paid $5 when in the class then I could recoup about $8 per hour. I was still hesitant but then they dangled out that if it was successful then the entire system would like to participate and I could actually make decent money.
Long story short - it was a huge success. My software was EVERYWHERE! Other schools picked it up and used it. It was great!
I made about $50.
It was 99.9% pirated…and the administration even told students to copy it. Virtually no-one paid.
Of course, since it was so ‘wildly successful’ they wanted me to do more. I refused saying it was a dismal failure…and showed them the $50 state-wide sales. They then went on about how it was loved etc and I should do more. I refused saying that I had other things to do with my time then spend 1300 hours for $50…but I would do it if they gave me less classes and I spent the time instead on the software…and they balked.
So…
It makes me wonder. Here was a product that people really liked. It seemed to really help people. It was wildly pirated and so people received it for free…a windfall. However, because of it, no further software was made. So…who really lost? Everyone methinks.
Now for the concern part…
How many great things have I missed out on…how many great PC games…learning software…useful software that could have existed but people didn’t bother because the reward for their hard work wasn’t there?
Dead wrong. I am the customer, and I form 50% of this business transaction*. Business transactions are based on both parties agreeing to do business, my agreement is just as important as the store’s agreement. If the store is not holding up their side of the transaction, if they are not performing the services that are expected from a gas station that is “open”, services they are paid to do, then they shouldn’t expect to get paid.
They do intend to hold up their end of the transaction – just not in a fashion you consider timely enough. If that’s your criteria, then you need to find out whether they are going to be able to meet it before you pump the gas. YOU take their product irrevocably, then YOU put yourself on the hook to pay for it. Nobody’s got a gun to your head forcing you to fill up there.
Why is it incumbent upon them to notify you that the circumstances for payment are IYO acceptable, instead of incumbent upon you to figure that our yourself before pumping their gas?
The problem with this statement is the word “intend.” What makes you think the business does not intend to hold up their end of the transaction? Maybe their computer system just crashed or something and they didn’t have a chance to turn off the pumps, put up a sign, etc.
But you agreed to do business on their terms when you took their product and placed yourself in the position of being unable to give it back. The gas station gives you gas, you give them money. That’s the deal, and everyone knows it’s the deal; no one believes they are giving gas away for free.
You want to add into that common bargain an additional element of timely processing of payment – timely processing apparently being unilaterally decided by you – after which you are entitled to take their product with out paying, entitled to steal it, IOW. This may be your assertion on your own personal planet, but here in the real world, there is no law, custom, more, or implied tradition, that adds this additonal bargaining term or in anyway allows this. Here in the real world, you’re a thief. Declaring this “dead wrong” changing nothing about it.
If you want to rescind that bargain, you have to give the goods back. This is perfectly acceptable if what we’re talking about is a bag of Fritos that you can just throw back on the shelf; people do this all the time. But if you have placed the goods beyond return – if you’ve eaten the Fritos – then you have incurred the obligation of paying for the goods you took.
There are elements that might negate this. The store is closed when you go to try to pay, so payment is impossible. You have a heart attack and get carted away in an ambulance, so payment is too difficult to expect. But even in those circumstances you are expected to come back around and pay for the goods, not just take them and keep them.
The idea that some subjective deadline you think up in your own head could absolve you of the duty to pay for goods you’ve taken – Ridiculous.
But that’s not what we’re discussing here. It’s been **specifically qualified **that we’re not arguing whether or not you were morally justified, but whether what you did was theft. Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving children… is still stealing.
Why yes I am! Thank you for noticing.
If poor customer service were a legal justification for theft, I would have several thousand dollars more in my bank account right now.
Which also rings true for much more important policies like alcohol or tobacco sales. Considering the penalty for termination is an automatic first offence I’ve chosen to do exactly what’s written in the handbook (which we get periodic updates about and have to seen a paper confirming we’ve read them). This results in many pissed off customers (and we only card people who look under 27, not universal carding) and lost potential business, but the store won’t get fined and I won’t get fired for it. Some of my coworkers are much more casual about checking IDs (including just asking people for their birthdates if they don’t have ID) and I’m just waiting for the day one of them get’s caught and complains about being fired (with no unemployment benifits or reference). I take more shit from carding people then anything else.
But what if one of those starving children needed the bread before he could donate a kidney to a person he didn’t know so that person could travel back in time and kill Hitler?
Well, that explains why you consider software piracy theft, but it doesn’t answer the question that was asked - What is your approximate definition of theft, as it relates to the topic under discussion?
They agreed to do business on my terms when they allowed their pump to put gas in my car, and put themselves in the position of not being able to get it back. Or, is this an unequal relationship where the store makes all the rules, doesn’t have to hold up their end of the transaction, and the customer just has to take it up the ass?
Legally, this should read “I agreed to do business on their terms when I used their pump to put gas in my car, and put myself in the position of not being able to give it back.” You’re welcome.
The entire transaction is “Gas station provides gas in exchange for payment”. The gas station provided the gas. The customer declined to pay. It’s not that he was unable to pay. He chose not to.
Let’s say you’re in a restaurant. You’ve eaten your meal. You go to pay with your credit card. You are informed that the credit card system has gone down, and that they are having to put the cards through manually, but that a large party wants to pay their separate cheques with credit cards, and there is going to be about a 10 minute wait. You are in a hurry. What do you do?
“In a hurry” as in “I need to rush to the hospital to perform life-saving surgery” or as in “I want to get home in time to watch something I forget to set up on my DVR” or “I just don’t feel like waiting ten minutes”? Unless it’s a life-threatening emergency, I can usually wait ten minutes. The delay isn’t the restaurant’s fault; I might grouse a bit but I certainly wouldn’t try to walk out without paying.
Pretty much, yep. It is an unequal relationship where once you have consumed the goods, you have an obligation to pay for them if you cannot return them. Again, there might be mitigating circumstances in cases of impossibility, or even great difficulty – but that’s not what we’re talking about here. And, again, even if circumstances dictate to you that you must leave, you have an obligation to STILL arrange for payment to be obtained – i.e., leave the money; come back and pay; tell them where to contact you for payment. Just walking out and STEALING the goods is not an option, except for thieves.
And you insist on adding the element of them “not holding up their end of the transaction,” when obviously no such element exists. They are able to take your money and they intend to take your money – they just aren’t taking it fast enough to suit you. But you did not refrain from taking the goods on that basis; you took the goods and therefore placed yourself in the position of having to pay for them. Period.
Actually, to make it as analogous as possible to the scenario described originally by BlinkingDuck in post #232, two people butt into line ahead of you, and the servers handle their transactions first.