I’m with everyone else who said it depends on how well you know the person.
Now, a question: what’s so bad about breeders?
I was wondering the same thing as SnoopyFan. Puppy mills are one thing, but what’s wrong with breediing dogs from a good dam and sire, with a known temperment and behavior? Is it that we should all adopt mutts? Is it wrong to breed animals in captivity? I can understand the first, but frankly, I feel my decision on a best friend and sidekick should not be dictated by someone else’s choice of letting their dog have sex or not. I do spay and neuter mine, when appropriate. (Only once was it not, a old friend who was a show dog, as well as a family pet. She was bred several times, and her puppies all went to good homes) For the second, there are several dozen things wrong with the concept, not least of which is that dogs are evolved to work in symbiotic partnership with man, and vice versa.
If I really felt I was surrounded by murderers I don’t think I would give much of a shit about what they thought of me, with the slight exception that I wouldn’t want to encourage my own death.
I think you’ve got that latter part down. You can push most humans pretty far before they want to kill you. Bitch away. There’s no nice way to call someone a killer or abuser.
I apologize, my previous post was unclear. I wasn’t directing that at the OP precisely, but rather: if eating animals is murder, fur is murder, breeding dogs is like slavery (I’m trying to extrapolate here), or etc, or etc, then all the people around you are sick fucking twisted individuals, and I don’t see why you would particularly care what they thought of you provided they didn’t make your life a living hell itself or end it.
Short of that, proselytize away.
I assure you, if I ever saw a man beat his wife, I wouldn’t worry that me slamming his head into the wall a few times would make him think less of me.
Exellent post, Una Persson!
Indeed, I think Una had lots of good stuff in there.
I’d just like to say that I think that you are totally cool for having this kind of inner dialogue.
Just the fact that you’re torn over how far to push things tells me that you are a decent person that can respect others and their boundaries.
I hope that you can come to terms with it and find a place that you feel comfortable in what you will and won’t do. Good luck! 
I suggest that you don’t or someone is going to rake you over the coals with logic, but hey if you want to go ahead, there is freedom of speech in the US.
**
Of course it is not conversion, you are preventing a criminal act. It is against the law to beat a child.
**
beating a dog, same same answer, same reason. This is not brain surgery. The fucking stupid comment will be left as an exercise for the student.
**
Yep, way over the line. Last time I checked it is not illegal to bred my dog, or go to Ringling Bros. or eat a steak for that matter.
**
If you stick with one and two above you will be a good citizen. When you go on to #3 you have become an asshole.
**
No because of the laws in this and other countries.
Of course, this ain’t Great Debates, Rick, but don’t you think that your post relied rather too heavily on what is legal, as opposed to what is moral?
The hampsters are screwing with me.
::: reaches for 1920’s SDR:::
I think that most people would equate moral and legal in the examples given.
for instance given the number of hamburgers sold by Mickey Ds each year I think it is safe to assume that most people consider the eating of cows to be a morally OK. Fattening yes, immoral no.
Also the argument could be made that given the number of people that go to the zoo, circus, petting zoo, etc. that this is also not a moral issue.
Both of these acts are legal.
The beating of a child is not considered moral anywhere that I am aware of, and is also illegal.
Thank you! That’s a wonderful site. I’ve bookmarked it.
Please, get me an extra-large box. Along with fake cheese and milk inhalers.
This is absolutely true, as is the opposite. Things society heartily embraced then, we abhor now.
Una Persson, all of your post is excellent. I’m mulling much of it over now.
Yes to all of this. And an emphatic yes to your statement about moral grounds and stands being unclear. I hate that lack of black and white clarity – the shades of grey are what trip me up. I need to get better about that.
Thank you for some wonderful advice. I’ve bookmarked this thread, as well.
Tongue in cheek, yes? unsure
Thanks for that. Another child-free person here, and it’s a very delicate line to walk sometimes. That’s something I try to keep in mind – some folks consider me a horror to behold (it’s true) because I won’t reproduce and don’t believe in reproducing nilly-willy. Before I start ranting on to people about my animal beliefs, I try to remember how I feel when I get the “WHAT? You don’t want CHIIIIIIIIIILDREN? You SELFISH FUCK!”
That is a true and excellent point.
SnoopyFan and E-sabbath, 6-8 million cats and dogs are euthanized each year in shelters (in the US). I cannot, in good conscience, support the breeding of more animals while so many die. I, personally, can’t hold with the belief that animals are toys or products that are to be ‘made’ to someone’s specifications. Several studies have shown that 25% of the animals in shelters are purebreds – if a purebred pet companion is what is desired, there are many, many to be had from shelters. There are thousands of rescues across the country that are, indeed, dedicated to only purebred animals. I would be happy to tell you more, if you like.
erislover, it’s not so much that I am afraid of my ‘own death’ (becoming a social pariah) as it is that I don’t want to be disrespectful to other people.
Thank you for the nice words, scout1222. Now if I could only solve the problem and bottle the results, I’d be a millionaire.
Rick, in your attempt to be an asshole, you have missed the point completely. I stated that I would be a pussy (translation: morally bankrupt) if I didn’t interfere in the child-beating scenario – there is no law that I am aware of that says I am legally obliged to do so. My examples may be very bad. For that, mea culpa.
If you were trying to be helpful, I apologize and thank you.
You seem to want to educate (breeding, circuses, etc…) more than shovel your opinions down other’s throats, which is just fine in my book.
I don’t care if you don’t eat meat, I don’t care if you aren’t reproducing (not everyone needs to be a parent), I don’t care that you won’t go to the circus… isn’t that your right as a HUMAN?
Enjoy your child-free/meat-free life and don’t bother with the jerks who are yelling down your throat about why you should eat meat and why you should have kids.
I have a child and I eat meat. I don’t go to the circus, horse racing, dog racing, or buy animals from pet stores/puppy mills. Animal testing sickens me so I know my eating meat is a wee hypocritical. I’m no saint but I can still dislike something or find it cruel.
You’re trying to walk a fine line by not being a stereotype. You sound conflicted, not crazy, and I wish you luck with your choices.
Oddly, I find myself very often at odds with activist animal rights folks. It isn’t because I think their opinions are fundamentally wrong. It’s that I think the most vocal are the least consistent.
Destroying someone’s mink coat, and destroying someone’s work boots is only different in a political sense. A belt and a wrist watch band are not differentiable if the reason for the passion is the suffering of animals.
But you better have a plan for feeding the people, and dealing with the animals that all have to die right away when domestication is eliminated. Pet owners are among the most difficult for me to listen to, when it comes to animal rights. I won’t own a pet for very philosophical reasons. Owning a living thing seems creepy to me. Owning it to survive (as in eating it) seems tolerable. Owning it to sop my lonesome ego seems evil incarnate. But I am certainly not about to tell someone else about that. Neither am I about to listen to a harangue on vegetarianism as a philosophy.
My diet has no philosophy. I don’t need one. And I don’t need yours. Eat vegetables if you want. Preen about your great health benefits if it pleases you. It won’t please me, but it has an arguable logic to it. But if you want to get me to nibble on a salad, philosophy ain’t a part of it. The number of Vegans who understand nutrition well enough not to malnourish themselves is a lot smaller than the number of Vegans who have explained their philosophy to me.
When your kids get malnourished, I will report that fact to Child Protective Services. Humans matter more to me than animals. Deal with it as you will. I will report animal cruelty, too. But I will report child abuse on a suspicion, and animal abuse on a witnessed event. People matter more to me.
Tris
A laudable goal.
Ignoring the thing about child abuse, my feeling is that unless the other person asks for your opinion, OR is about to cause direct (not indirect via support) harm to an animal (“DON’T FEED THAT CHOCOLATE BAR TO YOUR DOG!!!”) OR is a close friend, keep your opinions to yourself. (My opinions on this are similar to Siege’s
A few case studies
Correct (assuming they don’t know that you’re a vegetarian…if they do know and engage in the following dialogue, they’re being asses)
Them “Mmmmmm…I’m in the mood for a good steak! Let’s go to “Moe’s House of Meat (All The Meat You Can Eat!”)”
You: "Not so much, for me. What about “Omnivores R Us”? You can have your steak, and I’ll have a three-bean-salad with fresh herbs.
Incorrect
Them: “Mmmmmm…I’m in the mood for a good steak! Let’s go to “Moe’s House of Meat (All The Meat You Can Eat!”)”
You: You’re eating dead animals!? Don’t you know that you have five pounds of undigested meat in your colon?
Another example:
Correct
Them: Hey, QueerGeekGirl! Me and a couple of your co-workers thought it would be fun to go to the circus this weekend. Would you like to join us?
You (not you personally, mind you): No, thanks. Maybe another event some other time?
(then, if they ask, you can tell them why or not)
Incorrect:
Them: Hey, QueerGeekGirl! Me and a couple of your co-workers thought it would be fun to go to the circus this weekend. Would you like to join us?
You: What? Go and see poor helpless little animals being enslaved and tortured? You cruel bastards!!!
I figure that the key is them asking (close friends/relatives are a special case). Think of it this way: under what circumstances would it be apropriate for someone who’s political/religous philosophy is opposite to yours (Say, Pat Robertson) to approach you, corner you and start talking about his views/philosophies? Same deal.
And the fact that you’re asking tell me that you don’t have to worry about being a fucking nimrod. A fucking nimrod wouldn’t have asked.
Fenris
And having now read the entire thread, what Una and Bad News Baboon said, too!
I wasn’t trying to be an asshole, but remember you are the person that picked the examples. The first two examples you gave are black as black can be. The third is white to most people, off white to some, a very light grey to a very few, and only black to PETA members.
Look if you want to eat only carrots for the rest of your life, great. I have no problems with that. If you would like to come over for dinner, I will even ask how you would like them prepared, and make sure I lay in an ample supply.
But turn about is fair play. If you expect me not to criticize your menu choices, then don’t climb on my back about mine.
Fenris makes some excellent points in his case studies. I just might add that you might want to avoid
this.
I’m sorry, but… isn’t this logic the same as “Many children are placed for adoption every year. Therefore, nobody should give live birth until they adopt a unwanted child.” Animals are not toys or products to be made to someone’s specifications. On the other hand, if I like standard poodles, I sincerely doubt that I will be satisified with a purebred afghan. Again, I am responsible for those lives under my care, not for those lives under the care of others. Any dogs we breed are settled in loving homes. If the owners have to give them up, we take them back, rather than sending them to shelters. We do not mistreat our animals… depending on your view of docking. I’m personally opposed, but… well. It’s certainly no worse than a bris.
It certainly is sad that so many animals are committed to shelters, and that’s why I support neutering or spaying your pet, which is by far the greater contribution. And remember, most of those purebreds that you see in rescues are from puppy mills. I’m sorry, but I don’t want a dog from a puppy mill. As a matter of fact, I think they should be outlawed. For Scylla’s sake alone. Not to mention the animals.
Really, what’s so bad about breeding? Would you rather they had more unwanted puppies, instead? Or would you rather eliminate the dog entirely, or remove it from man’s care? The dog is a domesticated animal… but more than that, it is man’s right hand. We would not be where we are today without it. In fact, ignoring meat animals, I think it may be the only commonly still working animal in first world countries. Is breeding police dogs wrong? Would you think that mutts would serve better than german shepherds? Would you rather a dog from a rescue, or a dog with known traits and lineage to train?
I’d rather get the breed I want from a rescue. Odds are you can find it if you look. Best of both worlds.
I am really riding the fence on how I feel about breeding. E-sabbath, you make good points. And don’t take this as a stance in opposition of your viewpoint, but what if your decision to breed and hand those puppies out to good homes prevented some of the persons who received a puppy from adopting a homeless puppy? I know those homeless animals aren’t as a result of your doing or your responsibility, but I think (I hope?) you’d agree with me that the closer we can get to finding homes and avoiding euthanasia for homeless pets, the better. So, in a sense, you breeding dogs is working against that good (assuming that some of the people you provided a dog with would have gotten a pet from a shelter). With the exception of a handful of exotic and rare breeds, you can almost always find a dog close to the breed you want. For instance, this site: http://www.atlantapets.org/animals.zz collects about 40 or 50 different animal controls and shelters in the Atlanta area and puts then in one searchable database. I’m all for people choosing what kind of dog they want, but I do become a little bit skeptical if they have 700 - 1500 dogs to choose from (avg # of avail dogs from this website at any given point) and not one of them will do, because they simply must get their dog from a breeder. Again, ultimately it is up to the individual person, but I just wish that people would give some thought to what they are doing. (I’m not saying you don’t, E-Sab – but a lot of people don’t)
It’s really a tough call for me. Spaying and Neutering your pets is obviously imperative if you care anything at all about the issue. And not buying dogs or cats from retail outlets is very high up on the list as well. If we can dry up the market and make it so that it isn’t profitable to operate a puppy mill, the walking sacks of shit that run then will stop.
Disrespectful? What could possibly be disrespectful about telling people you think they are totally immoral and so on? :rolleyes:
You have a stand that calls a whole lot of people pretty fucking wrong. And you don’t want to be disrespectful? It is a little late for that, I think.
There is no way to call people a murderer nicely. Tough luck.
Just to make it a bit tougher, remember, those homeless purebreds are, by and large, the output of puppy mills. I’m not saying that this means they ‘deserve to die’, but their dogs, by and large, are not even close to equal what we breed. In health, temprament, or intelligence. My point being that we work towards a gold standard, a better, healthier, and generally happier dog. Because, honestly, we love dogs. I wish we could give all deserving owners one of our puppies. Not that a rescue dog isn’t deserving of health and happiness and companionship, but our dogs, generally, are even better with it.
In short, this is sort of like the SUV argument… except that the SUVs in the argument are actually better and safer.
Stopping breeding isn’t the answer. For one thing, the incredibly low volume of any name breeder does not contribute to the excess, and most do try to find good homes, or even take old friends back, if the family can no longer keep them.
Stopping puppy mills is. Remember, like Bob Barker, Spay or Neuter Your Pet, Folks!
In other news, why not simply point out, if asked, “Well, I’m opposed to how circuses treat and train their animals. I find it cruel and inhumane.” “I find it” is key here, it stops you from imposing your view on them. “Oh, really? The circus? You know, I decided a long time ago I could never go to the circus.”
What’s wrong with the circus, by the way? The above is my best guess. I’m not much up on modern training methods, though. And remember, some dogs want to be trained. Like border collies. Love herding things. My standard poodle opens doors, turns on the TV… (Likes nature shows with bears and soccer), and all sorts of things. We really havn’t had to teach him much, he tends to invent it first.
Only thing I’ve heard is the local PETA nutcase who goes insane every year with Ringling Brothers and makes the talk radio circuit saying that elephants are “tortured” with knives (attached to long sticks…I can’t remember the term) and cattle prods to the elephant’s :: cough :: private parts, “starved”, “forced to live in their own feces for weeks at a time” and “publically humiliated” ( :rolleyes: ) so that them evil circus owners can save a few bucks.
Th’ problem with that, is that if Ringling Brothers is so money-grubbing, there’s no way they’d treat valuable (and hard to replace) property like elephants anywhere near as bad as the local PETA nutcase* would suggest. Really: think about it. Let’s say an elephant costs (just a guess, I’ve got no clue as to what an elephant would cost) $20,000 (the cost of a nice car). Then you have to train th’ thing which represents (again guessing) a year of paying a trainer for non-productive time (the elephant’s not making money until it’s trained). Let’s say that the trainer gets (third guess) $25,000 a year (it’s a specialized job after all–there can’t be that many elephant trainers around.). That’s (guessing) an investment of $45,000 per elephant. And that doesn’t count feeding it, etc. during that year.
Why in the world would you skimp on Elephant Chow[sup]tm[/sup] or washing out th’ thing’s cage? Even if Ringling Brother’s are completely inhuman monsters who are completely immune to the horrors of watching an animal suffer, they’re not stupid. And wasting elephants to save a few bucks for washing out the cages and an extra scoop of Elephant Chow[sup]tm[/sup] a day would be stupid.
When these questions were put to the local PETA nutcase, she said the radio host “Just didn’t caaaare about the animals” and stomped off in a huff.
The radio host had on a trainer a few days later who explained his training methods (“LIES! ALL LIES!” cried the PETA nutcase) and made a very convincing case for why, for humanitarian reasons, state and federal regulations (IIRC), for good solid business reasons, and for pratical reasons (“Would you like a 2 ton elephant pissed off at you for poking it with knives or zapping it’s private parts with electricity. I wouldn’t. I don’t want an elephant who could literally crush me like a twig to view me as a pain-giver who’s to be feared.”) it’s in everyone’s best interest to train the elephants with reward (rather than punishment) based training and making sure it’s treated and fed well.
I’m not attributing the PETA nutcase’s arguement to QueerGeekGirl, btw. I assume she has completely seperate arguments.
Fenris
*She supported a PETA (?) effort to “raise conciousness” by having a couple of naked chicks hang out in a cage to demonstrate the horrors of elephants at a circus. This showed that she had no clue as to human male nature as she’s just created, in every straight male the following association “Circus with elephants come to town, I get to see naked chicks in cages! Naked chicks…GOOD! If MORE circuses have elephants, I see more naked chicks! Let’s support circus!”