You’ve defined one big difference. One. Just one. It’s a political difference. And there is more to life than politics.
I explained a different kind of difference — a kind that I thought might be helpful to her based on what I understood her to be asking. If you think it’s “utter gash” (whatever the heck that is), you’re entitled. But if you think it’s complicated, you’re stupid.
While I agree that some dogs have a higher propensity than others to be well behaved and intelligent, 99x out of 100 this will only come out with owners who demand a lot from their dogs. The average Joe 6-pack who owns a dog (myself included) who wants a loving companion and wants their dog to sit, stay, heel, come, laydown, etc – I submit that with attention and training, any average rescue dog can stand up to a pedigree.
Now, if you want a highly trained police/hunting/search&rescue/drug sniffing dog, I see why you would want the purebred. For those of us who just want a new family member and a friend, bloodlines don’t matter. Temperment and basic intelligence for following everyday commands do, and again (having worked with a lot of dogs), I don’t think you’re going to see much difference for everyday behavior.
Actually, ALL of the dogs the Customs Service uses to train for drug-sniffing and contraband-sniffing work are rescue dogs. They came through our area last year and tested a bunch of the golden retrievers at the rescue I work with. (None passed, but at least they tested them!) So being a purebred or a mixed breed doesn’t matter so much to them as the dog’s temperament and ability to be trained.
Interesting. I stand corrected. 
See, that’s what you would think.
Here’s a story about how a fairly major circus treated their elephants. Now, this was the “King Royal Circus,” not Ringling Brothers, but they’ve been affiliated in the past. I realize that the story is on an animal protection site, but it reports the same facts we all read in our daily papers when the incident happened. I’m not the only person in Albuquerque whose appreciation for the traditional circus was greatly reduced when this happened. Even my children, who always loved circuses, stopped wanting to see one after hearing this and other related stories about how traveling shows treat their animals.
If I didn’t know about this incident and was considering buying a ticket to the circus, I’d actually appreciate a friend telling me about it before I did so.
Well, you shouldn’t do anything at all until your own actions are consistant with your beliefs. When you have managed to give up red meat for longer than “just” - have given up poultry completly. Have given up dairy and eggs (you do know how chickens are treated, don’t you), when you don’t wear leather or use animal products – then when you talk to others, you’ll just be annoying, not a hypocrite.
I’d have very little patience with someone lecturing me about a circus or dog breeders while wearing leather shoes.
Here’s my analogy. Let’s imagine this completely hypothetical post:
"As an anti-abortion activist, longtime member of (shut it!) the Pro-Life Action League, etc, ad infinitum, where in the blue fuck do I draw the line when it comes to proselytizing?
Now, let’s say (hypothetically) that I firmly believe that abortions are barbaric and monumentally cruel acts, akin to the murder of a human being. Okay.
Should I try to convert people? Is it considered ‘conversion’ if I believe I’m attempting to stop a brutal process? I’m hyper-sensitive about shoving what I believe down anyone’s throat, but this is the scenario that fucks me up:
I go to the mall. I see someone beating the fuck out of a defenseless child. I proceed to do something about it (call the cops, inject myself into the situation, etc).
That’s not conversion to my belief that beating up on a child is wrong.
Is it?
Now. I see someone beating a newborn baby. I think most of would agree to the same thing – do something about it.
Okay! I’m clear on that. NOW here’s an example of the fucking sticky parts…
Demonstrationg in front of clinics. Should I tell people who are going into a clinic for an abortion my beliefs on how shitty it is? And what it does and what it causes, etc? Or has that stepped over the line into lecturing and soap-boxing?
Contributing money to Planned Parenthood. Do I tell my best friend who’s giving money for all of the great free contraceptive works they do what a contemptible institution they are? Or have I crossed that boundary?
You see my point. I don’t want to be some domineering asshole who shoves what I think up your ass and reams it until you scream your blood soaked acceptance of my values.
BUT. If I see a kid getting their ass righteously kicked and don’t step in, I’m a fucking pussy for not stopping a brutal and wrong process. If I believe the same (or equivalant of) thing about unborn babies and say nothing, isn’t that the same thing?
Or is it?
Any answers greatly appreciated.
Many advance apologies for being such a fucking nimrod."
Let’s assume for a moment that you are pro-choice (I have no idea if you are or not, but just for my little example, let’s pretend you are and passionately so).
What advice would you give to the person who wrote my hypothetical posting?
Is it different when you are on the other side of the issue?
Is it different when the the person with strong feelings on the matter differ from yours?
I had to change only a few words here and there in my hypothetical post, and your real one, so I think it’s a valid comparison.
P.S. the purpose of this example is NOT to start an abortion debate or hijack this thread in any way. The point is just to demonstrate that people sometimes get so caught up in the rightness of their cause that they can’t see how it could appear to someone with different beliefs.
The idea is to ask yourself how you would feel about your same tactics being applied to you by someone else about a subject you have the opposite opinion on.
You mean the Golden Rule?
Having read page 1 of this thread, I’ll agree with the consensus that gently expressing your opinions as opinions is the best way. I’m sure you feel strongly about them but many people will not convert.
I myself have had the fuck beat out of me many a time when I was a kid. So if “epistemic” belief is not to be trusted then I am not qualified to give advice concerning the treatment of kids. I’d rather not have to make that choice and would never choose to have any of my own.
However I do feel qualified to offer the opinion that humans are animals and generally anything we feel (pain/suffering/emotions/etc) other animals feel too.
But nonetheless I am a meat eater and cannot be changed. I have been told how horrid the meat processing plants are, how short are the lives of slaughter animals, have seen cows packed together, and have been in a discussion that fortunately didn’t get heated, about the consumption of meat. Yet I do not change my ways. Humans are animals and some animals eat meat. I have a cat who eats meat. It would be unhealthy AFAIK for him to not eat meat and I’m told it would be the same for me (although I have no firsthand experience on that matter :D).
Let me say though, QueerGeekGirl, that you are not a fucking nitwit, you are not fucking stupid, and even in spite of the meat thing I would love to meet a woman like you IRL. With me it would just be a simple matter of each side respecting the other’s opinions and boundaries.
Okay, off to read page 2.
autz, you raise a good point.
I do not want to hijack the thread either. But, if I were a woman and I walked into a clinic to have an abortion, and a small group of pro-lifers started shouting at me on the way in, I wouldn’t have very many kind words for them or their cause.
I guess it goes back to the aforementioned honey/vinegar statement.
Just a quick note: I haven’t in any way deserted my thread. I’ve been typing up a response post in Wordpad. Life is nuts, the wife is in the hospital, but I greatly appreciate all of your advice and outlooks and I will get my responses posted ASAP.
Thanks again, folks.
No, I defined the big difference, it is wholly irrelevant if it is “political” or otherwise.
You “explained” nothing, you posited a rather dodgy dichotomy – merely stating that, IYNSHO, beliefs fell into one of two categories, either intellectual, or, epistemic.
This assertion is complicating, but not complicated, correspondingly, it is simplistic, but not simplifying.
You don’t understand the idiom “utter gash”? – so what, as long as you understood “pseudo-intellectual bollocks” then my meaning was clear.
Hi,
On the breeding issue- I think E-Sabbath brought up some good points. I’m vehemently against puppymills and indiscriminate breeding- but I also see a responsible breeder as a necessary part of the picture. Responsible breeding is how it “should” be, and if we throw out that along with the indiscriminate breeding- the only alternative will be irresponsibly bred animals. A responsible breeder screens out health issues, breeds quality animals in health, temperament, structure and ability for whatever their intended use is- and most importantly is responsible for the quality of life AND the reproductive future of every pup produced. Unfortunately breeders like that are in the minority- they are certainly not providing enough pups to significantly affect the amount of homes unavailable to the rescue or shelter animal. How would it be if such dogs were the majority? Our overpopulation problem could be solved or greatly reduced. We’d have owners and breeders accepting the responsible path of dog ownership and breeding.
For myself, I need my dogs to do a very specific thing- work livestock. Its a relationship that is extremely rewarding to both myself and the dogs- not to mention my sheep who can be handled very gently with the help of a well bred dog (anyone who doubts this can come over and try to catch or move my sheep without a dog). Of course you can argue about my intents for the livestock (actually I love my sheep, on the hoof and in the freezer 
, etc- but my relationship with my well bred dogs could not be replaced by any dog in a shelter or rescue. Nor could many other working, service and sport dogs. I do rescue myself, so I’m not oblivious to the problem- but I don’t think breeding in and of itself is evil or wrong. The real problem here is lack of responsibility that is present in our society- whether its raising kids or raising dogs.
Of course, my need for cats is less specific so I don’t buy purebreds but instead adopted cats in need.
I don’t mind people sharing their beliefs- I work in a vet office with half a staff of vegans or vegetarians and have never had anyone treat me rudely because I own livestock or have bred dogs in the past. I’ve had inquiries and answered questions but never felt judged. Likewise, I don’t judge them for being PETA members- we can agree to disagree and be quite friendly with each other. Everyone does what they think is right- I think animal welfare is far more important and practical than animal rights. Others have different priorities- as long as they provide reasons why they feel that way rather than judgements on people who don’t- we will get along fine.
Yup, yup. I had one dog I got from a breeder, and I still have 3 rescue dogs. When it’s time to get a new dog, we will probably get a pup from a breeder who breeds for the specific qualities we want (high drive, herding ability, intelligence) and screens for health issues (good hips, good eyes, no epilepsy). A good, responsible breeder will be able to give us information on these issues. A rescue dog, unfortunately, won’t come with this information.
Having said that, I’d get another rescue dog too. There are a TON of Australian Shepherds (my breed of choice) in rescue out there. And many of them would be great dogs. But it’s a little more of a crap shoot, genetically.
And personally, I don’t have anything to say to animal rights activists. I’m a meat eater and a hunter. Anyone that doesn’t want to eat meat or hunt has a right to feel that way. I have a right to feel the way I do too.
Well, just a couple of points:
I got my puppy from a breeder. He’s a bichon/shitzu/yorky cross (as opposed to a pure breed). I would have liked to get a rescue dog; however, I have a little fluffy bunny at home to consider. Ensuring that the dog I got had a gentle temperament and would get along with my bunny was one of my #1 concerns. Hence, I got him from the breeder who guaranteed his temperament. (In case anyone is interested, they get along swimmingly.)
I work in a centre that does animal research. Extensive animal research. While the idea of little mice and rats and bunnies being used for research makes me feel oogie, I’m somewhat pragmatic about it - animal research saves human lives, period.
Now, if you, as a meat eater, started lecturing me, a vegetarian, about either of the above, I would think you were the greatest hypocrite ever. I would not respect you for your comments. I would find them self serving.
Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone and all that.
(Of course you haven’t mentioned either of the above to me specifically, so I don’t think you’re a hypocrite/self-serving, etc.)
Meanwhile, back in the Big Top, Squeaky was scanning the days chat boards for issues pertaining to The Brotherhood. A post from QueerGeekGirl cathes his eye and suddenly, its only his makeup that’s smiling.
“Bingo! Corker! Get over here. I think we found another troublemaker.”
“God, I sure wouldn’t want to be Her”, chimmed in Jiggly as Squeaky reached for the bright yellow and red phone. A voice answered on the other end as soon as the reciever was raised.
“Clown Mafia…”
You’re full of shit. Clear?
I just want to chime in with support for reputable hobby breeders, who produce small numbers of quality, mentally and physically sound dogs to place in ready, waiting homes. This is distinct from puppy mills or any sort of large-scale dog production situation.
I’m going to copy/paste from a post I wrote in a different thread, because it applies here. Someone was making the same claim–essentially that all dog breeders are directly responsible for the destruction of large numbers of unwanted animals in shelters every year, and that everyone should go out and get a mongrel or rescue dog from a shelter, and that would solve the problem.
Here’s the thing though: reputable hobby breeders are not the reason so many millions of dogs end up in animal shelters.
Again, I’m not speaking in support of puppy mills and pet stores. I would never in my life consider buying a dog from someone who mass produces them for the purpose of profit, or ever reccommend that anyone else do so. A reputable dog breeder does it for the love of the breed, because if you truly, properly raise your litter of puppies and maintain your adults, you will never turn a profit. Additionally, a reputable breeder will never produce a litter of puppies without a confirmed waiting list of buyers with deposits, or the ability to keep every dog they produce, if no suitable homes are found, as well as keeping (or re-homing) any dog of their breeding later returned to them for any reason. Every reputable breeder I know absolutely insists that any puppy they place be returned to them if for any reason the new owner decides they cannot or do not want to keep the dog. These dogs rarely, if ever end up in shelters, and then it’s often due to the new owner’s dishonesty or shame in admitting to the breeder that they could not properly care for the dog. Even still, nearly every reputable American* breeder I know has a tattoo or microchip system in place so that any dog of theirs that ends up at a shelter can be identified and returned to them. Get it? These people take responsibility for the lives they bring into this world, a responsibility that does not end when the dog is placed in its adoptive home. Responsible dog breeding is done as a hobby and a passion, not a profession.
Educate the backyard breeders, nuke the puppy mills, and educate dog owners about spaying and neutering their pets, and you’ll solve the overpopulation problem. The problem is not the reputable hobby breeders–these people grill you like you’d never believe, it’s like adopting a child. They put far too much time, care, and money into their dogs to let them go to unsuitable homes. The problem is the “breeders” that think that because they paid $500 for fidette that they ought to get a litter out of her to sell, and recover their money. Or that their children should see the miracle of birth. Or that their friends and neighbors all love fluffy and want a puppy just like her but poof they’re gone when the fluff-lets turn five weeks and it’s time to chuck them out the door. Or that guy who thinks that Sparky’s testicles are a direct reflection of his own masculinity, and therefore refuses to neuter his dog on basic principle, therefore also allowing him to scale the fence at will to go romance the lovely french poodle down the street, et al. Or that lady who thinks that it’s her dog’s god given right to give birth and raise puppies. Or the puppy mills who produce dogs to sell to any unprepared, unsuspecting yutz who walks through the door, ready to plunk down his cash and walk out with his cute, fluffy, genetic mess, who by the way pees and eats and chews things up, oops!
Responsible breeders produce quality, mentally and physically sound dogs for a purpose, and place them in devoted, loving homes. They’re not the ones producing 95% of the dogs that end up in animal shelters. They’re not the reason those dogs exist, the root of the problem, nor is shutting them down the solution to the problem.
~mixie
*I specify American here because of the microchip scanning system in place in our shelters and such. The breeders I know in other countries are primarily either European and South American–this was not to exclude them from the “responsible breeder” category, just to say that a microchip or tattoo system placed on a dog in another country would not be so easily recognized here, so the identification system is not as readily used, at least with the breeders with whom I communicate.
Of course, I should mention that all of that is applicable if you believe that buying a dog from a reputable breeder is wrong because by doing so you’re condemning millions of other dogs in shelters to death–a stance which I believe got from the posts in this thread. If, of course, your stance is that breeding dogs is wrong because it’s cruel to keep pets, period, especially to breed them because by keeping your dog on leash and not allowing it to roam free, and spaying or neutering and teaching it obedience you’re “denying them their ‘animalness’” and other utter bullshit which I’ve seen posted in other threads by other persons, then… well… I can’t help you regain your grip on sanity
~mixie
QueerGeekGirl
I spy that this thread has somewhat stalled … but I wanted to drop in an just say:
QGG you derserve an A+ for creative swearing!
I LOVED your use of interesting words and images in your OP!
Swearing well done, to be sure! “…Where in blue fuck…”
Was my favorite. I’m thinking I’m gonna adopt that one! It just rolls off the tongue!
Thanks!
Carry on.